Tell me about your song 'Nervous'.

Yeah, that was the Platters that was the background group on that, and the kid wrote that, and we went into the session. So he said, "Eh-eh-eh-eh." It was a real great side for us.

What was your first record?

Well, my first hit record was 'There's Something on Your Mind' listen. We had recorded this number in a guy's basement in Seattle, Washington, and went back a year later, got the tapes. Anyway, I carried it to Hollywood, and nobody wanted to put it out. They said, "Well, it's nothing." I had been playing for Hunter Hancock. The guy was a great disc jockey, he played all the black music. I did a lot of play me. I said, "Man," I said, "This is a big hit, because I'm telling you we play it all the time." He said, "Well, Big Jay, I don't think it's going to make nothing, do anything, but I'm going to play it out because of you."

So, he put the CD out, and I knew I had a hit, so I was backing Bobby Darin and Chuck Berry, and I went up to San Francisco and put it on the air, and it broke wide open, and it's history after that. You know the number, everybody's done it this, Professor Longhair, B.B. King, and all the guys. It was a big hit for me. That's how it got on, Hunter Hancock own swinging label, that's how I got on his label.

You recorded the first version, but it was covered by a lot of artists

I think, but all of them got their own style. 'Bobby Marchan' listen was a big, because he did the comedian type of style, by going downtown, getting it done, and all that type of stuff. I think I was at the original, was had the real feeling soul, and the other ones were really great. Professor Longhair, B.B. King did it, Buddy Guy did it, Benny Port did it. All the guys, everybody just about had recorded this number, and they all had a good sound on it too.

The singer on that was Little Sonny.

Yeah, see he ... Yeah, I met him in Seattle, Washington, no, Washington D.C., and he loved Ray Charles. He sounded exactly like him. He worked with a very soulful gospel singer. When we started doing this tune, it was another guy that had this tune, 'There's Something on Your Mind', and I bought it from him for $25.

Yeah, so what happened is I told him, "You sing it exactly like this kid," but the way the kid had it, it was like Fats Domino. He loved Fats, but I said, "Man, cut everything in half, you got a hit." Little Sonny sings it with his own self, but like this guy, because he loved to imitate Ray Charles. I said, "Forget about Ray Charles, you do it this way," and it turned out to be a big hit for him. Then we got the 'Minnie' listen and 'My Darling Dear' listen, and 'I Got The Message' listen, many tunes by Little Sonny.

Who played on 'There Is Something on Your Mind'?

Well, my brother was on the baritone, and my other brother was on bass. Well, Robert McNeely, that was my brother, and Dillard McNeely was my brother, and then we had, let's see. We also had Wendell Johnson, he was a guitar player, and Leonard "Tight" Hardiman. He was from Fort Worth, Texas, and he was playing drums. Because, we only use a guitar, baritone, and bass, and a tenor, but we got the big sound. Because, we voice the guitar like organ. Big sound, and put my brother on the bottom with the bass, and I was on the top. That's why you hear this big sound, but there was only five of us.

You recorded that on tour right?

Yeah, that was during the same time that we was in, we played Seattle, Washington, then we would go to Portland and play. During that time, we recorded 'There's Something on Your Mind'. As a young musician and scuffling, I didn't have any money. In fact, we couldn't even take the tapes of it. I had to go back a year later to get the tapes. But, it turned out to be a big hit for me.

You're well know for your stage performance. Tell us about that.

Yeah, well during that time the reason I started laying on the floor, I was working in a little town called Clarksville, Tennessee. That's what we called a Chitlin' Circuit, where all the black down south. This particular audience that night, they didn't respond to my music, and I couldn't understand why. After intermission, I got on my knees, and I laid on my back, boy, and they just went crazy. I said, "Let me try this." I got to Texas, Fort Worth I tried it. Then when I got to Los Angeles, man, all the kids just ate it up out there. You can see all the pictures and stuff.

You have a big following amongst white and chicano tennagers as well as black?

What happened is that, I was playing to 5 and 6,000 white kids every week. We'd go into a theater, they would close it down, and we would pack the place. They, like Hunter Hancock was the only disc jockey that was playing our type of music. Everybody else was playing the white type of music. They would follow around, take pictures, thought they was on drugs. They didn't know what was happening. They didn't understand why the white kids were responding to my music, and that was around '50, the 50's, in the 50's. They couldn't stop them, so what they did, they wouldn't give me a permit to play.

I couldn't play in Los Angeles. They barred me out of Los Angeles all together. My manger put me with GAC, and they was the powerhouse agent, they booked Nat King Cole, and all that, Sammy Davis. I was able to go and work The Palisades in New York, Birdland, Wild Wood, New York, all the big circuits back east, but I couldn't work in Los Angeles, because they wouldn't give me a permit. I did a concert with Earl Bostic and the guy had to get a special permit for me to work that night.

They were very prejudice, they didn't like the white kids screaming over the blacks, me being black. They couldn't stop it, so what they did, after they barred me out, they'd taken the saxophone out, put the guitar in, and brought Elvis in, and Pat Boone, and all them, Jerry Lee Lewis, and called it Rock & Roll. Then that's when they, now the same type of music, but on a different groove is all right, because the white kids is doing it.

The rhythm and blues thing had not started yet?

No, yeah, because when I started off, I started off playing jazz. I started out with Sonny Criss and I had a band in school with Hampton Halls, which he's a great piano player, jazz piano. I think Sonny Criss was about the closest to Bird at that particular time. After we graduated from school, I went and studied with Joseph Caroline, which played the first chair RKO Studio. As Sonny and I had become very legit for about a year on account of Sonny. Then after that, I went into soul music. But, yeah, when Dizzy Gillespie, Charlie Parker, Teddy Edwards, all those guys, I mean they had a hard time playing the music, now I need to make money.

Were you doing the honking thing then?

No, I didn't, because you see, like the teacher I studied from, he taught us how to get that E sound, like an opera singer, where your horn just sings. If you notice all their criticism, they never said nothing about my sound. They never questioned that, but what they did question was I'm playing one note for several courses maybe. But, I was using at times slow vibrato, fast vibrato, using different things on the horn to get different sounds. Anytime you repeat something it tweets like a wind coming through, or storm coming through, and you create all this excitement. They couldn't do it. They couldn't play one note for a whole cord, and yet the people would stay there and respond to it.

Did you care that your style might upset the jazz aficionados?

No, I didn't care about their criticism, because I knew I had studied, I knew I was a qualified musician. What they said, it didn't mean nothing, because the kids were responding to what I was doing, and I wasn't going to stop. I don't feel not regret about that they wrote, because when you know from your heart what you're doing is right, forget about all these critics. When someone criticizes, that means that you must be doing something right.

Tell us about your first visit to a recording studio.

My first recording was 'Deacon's Hop' listen. Like I said, I studied for years, and a friend of mine named Chris Stanford came by and said, "Big Jay, do you want to record?" I said, "Yeah." So, a fellow in Watts had a little record store, and he gave me a record by Glenn Miller with the drums, the tch-tch-tch-tch, for the introduction. I've taken that little phrase, I wrote Deacon's Hop, and that was my first biggest hit. The record companies, from that time on, all they wanted to do was record me the same way I made my first hit. They weren't concerned about me loving jazz, ballads and stuff like that. All they wanted was the hit. I was locked into that groove for many years.

What are some of your favourites?

Well, '3-D' listen is one my tunes that creates a lot of excitement. I had 'All That Wine is Gone' listen was good, and 'Backshack Track' listen, 'Minnie', 'My Darling Dear'. A lot of these things, little funny things are. Then there were other things I did like 'The Goof' listen, 'Wild Wig' listen, 'Texas Turkey' listen, all those things that are a real solid groove, and I love them all, because they all were telling a story at that particular time.

Do you have any favourite performances?

I think the one that I thought that was really great, was when we did the Grammy's. That's the first time they ever had the blues on the Grammy's, and they tried to pick the top. They had B.B. King, Albert King, Willie Dixon, Koko Taylor, Junior Wells, Dr. John, Etta James, and Robert Cray, he was the youngest one, because he just had a hit, and myself. We stood 6,000 people up in the auditorium, because I laid on the floor. It was great, because you then, great company, as well as the world got a chance to really see the blues together as a professional, well I don't think maybe in a professional setting, but in a setting that everybody has looked at over the years as being a program that features the best entertainer or the best music for that year.

It was a great measure to be on there. Because, I've done so many things. Like I worked with the top 10 with Little Richard, Bill Doggett, Five Keys. I worked with The Ink Spots, I worked with jazz guys, Cab Calloway. All of the greats. In fact, in Australia, man, we had some great concerts here.
​

Did you work with Johnny Otis?

No, I did one thing with Little Johnny Otis. We had a thing called 'Barrelhouse Stomp'. That was about 1948, before I got my big hit. Other than that, no, I've always had my own band I've always recorded, and I never played with no big band or none of that stuff. I started my own band, and Kept it that way all my life.

Who was your greatest competition amongst sax honkers?

I don't know. They all had their own thing. I introduced Joe Houston to Los Angeles, Chuck Higgins, and Willis Jackson, I played with him. I battled with him. A lot of the guys refused to even battle with me. With Sam Taylor, and then another guy, this guy Sam Butera, that worked with Louis Prima. I found him, I said, "Let's have a battle," it's like, and none of the guys would do it. I don't know, it all depends. I never had that opportunity to play with it, but they all had their own thing. The only way you could do is say, "Come on man, let's get together and see what happens."

Johnny, tell me how you started out to be a musician

Well, it’s a long story. That’s from my early childhood days. I grew up in a home where there was some music there. But, according to the folks it wasn’t for me to be a part of. So I wound up in Alpha Boys Schoolwhere I learnt to play some music and I took it from there you know?

How did you end up in Alpha School For Boys?

Well, I had to pull a couple of pranks. My folks wasn’t the type who would have liked to dump their kids there y’know? So I had to pull a couple of pranks so that they figure I was going haywire.

You did it on purpose?

Yes, because I had to learn the music and ever since I was a kid I told them hey I didn’t want to do any’ting else. I used to like use the leaf of the pumpkin and make like flutes, papaya stalks that kind of stuff there and combs, sardine cans with elastics, anything that would make a sound.

How did you know the Alpha School was the place to go?

Funny. I seen some kid next door to me. Beating off a mean drum. I say “bwoy, where did you learn to do that?” And he said “Alpha”. I said “where is that”. He says “you can’t go there”, coz my folks they weren’t the worst off. They weren’t the type of people, were Seventh Day Adventists, they don’t go with the Roman Catholic sentiment of things anyway, y’know? I says “whoah, I got to get to that place”. Like I said, I had to pull a couple of pranks (laughs).

But, the nuns at Alpha didn’t encourage you playing popular music?

Well, I wouldn’t say that. Because at one stage in the school there was a dance band there. Guys pulled from the regular band and they had a little dance group going. So I wouldn’t say that.

What sort of training did you receive at Alpha School?

Well some academical training and the music. I even went into the electronical field, but, that wasn’t me you know? I got a prize one time as the best electronic engineer. We were studying some type of thing from Bennett’s College in Britain. But, I was a bit upset because I wanted the prize for music (laughs). I never got it.

Well you had a lot of competition because out of Alpha came a whole generation of great especially horn players.

Yes, that is very much so. Some good musicians come from the institution. We had a very good tutor. His name was Reuben (sic) Delberry [Reuben Delgado], he was very good. I think he learnt his music at Kneller Hall at Britain. He was very good.

I guess you got to an age when you had to leave Alpha School. What happened then?

I left and I didn’t get a job as a musician right away. I applied to the Gleaner company as a liner type operator. I did a little printing at school also y’know? But, one day the postman came in and there was two mails. One from the Jamaica Military Band and one from Gleaner company (laughs). So you know what happen. You can just imagine what happen there.

The Gleaner company of course is the main newspaper in Kingston

Yeah, well that one, I threw that one away. Because the Jamaica Military Band was right up my line. That was music y’know?

How long did you spend in the military band?

Maybe about three years and eight months. But, I got kicked out ‘coz I was messin’ around Charlie Parker and Dizzy Gillespie that sort of stuff and they tell me “hey that’s not what we pay you for”. I was still into that. When I should have been practicing like Beethoven and Bach I was working on Charlie Parker and Dizzy Gillespie.

What was your first band after the military band?

Oh. First band. Well, while I was in the military band I used to play around with one Stanley Edgar. But, after the military band I wound up with Mapletoft Poulle. He was kind of one of the society top bands y’know? Some lawyer by the name of Poulle. I played around for some time until my hair start going too long and he figure its time for me to get a haircut. I say “uh uh”. No more cutting.

Were you a rasta then?

Well, I always was a rasta. I was in love with rastafari from my early childhood days. But, it started coming out now. That was part of the problem in the military band too, like I refuse to shave and that sort of thing. At that time in the military you had to be clean shaven y’know? I can remember one day (laughs), the sergeant booked me for being "dirty on parade". For being unshaven. So he called the corporal and says “corporal book him”. The corporal took out his notebook and pen, started writing. But, something hit me. I said “hey serge, can I ask you a question?”. “oh yes ”. “you’re a Christian man sir?”. “yes I am”. “you believe in the lord god Jesus Christ?”. “yes of course I do”. I said “your god nastier than me. Same beard, longer than mine”. And the whole parade cracked up. (laughs). Everybody started laughing. I ran in a lot of trouble inside there y’know? Being who I am really.

Was there a lot of work for you even after you left the dance band?

After I left Mapletoft Poulle things were not all that rosy. Because in that time nobody catered to rastas y’know? Rastas were like outcasts in society. Even your very folks would try to get you out of sight y’know? So I went with my bredren some. We used to play around with Count Ossie with the drum and music and entertain ourselves and whoever wanted to could come and listen.

Was that in the Wareika Hills?

Yup.

You must have come down at one time because then you were a member of The Skatalites?

Yes. Well, eventually. Wha’appen is that. When the hunger for the music really start eating away at me, I decide to check on Coxsone. Suggested to him that could make some local music rather than going to the states every so often to buy some music. Well at first he thought I was a bit crazy coz there was all those great pop musicians in America. Great musicians in general. He thought I was a nut trying to make some music that could send up against that American art form y’know.

At that time the only music being played on the island was imported American R&B?

Yes. Very much so.

Was American jazz very popular as well?

Yes. Jazz was very popular in Jamaica coz at that time most of the nightclubs used to have a lot of jazz. I at one time used to run gig around sometimes. I didn’t really play too much of that. The times kind of change.

It always appeared to me that the audience of the early days of the late 50s wanted to hear R&B. Wanted to hear Louis Jordan, Rosco Gordon, Fats Domino sort of thing. But, all the horn players really wanted to play jazz.

I wouldn’t put it like that. You have the people downtown and the people uptown. People uptown want to cater more to the jazz form. The ones downtown looking more to the R&B portion of things y’know?

So your sets would change significantly depending upon where you were playing?

Yeah

How did you actually hook up with The Skatalites?

Well, The Skatalites came out of the studio. Studio players. What we did was to pick some from… pick the better players from those that work in the studio. There was a group. The Cavaliers. The Cavaliers fell apart and we decided to on putting The Skatalites together.

Just go through the original members of The Skatalites for me.

We have Jackie Mittoo. Lloyd Brevett, bass. Mittoo keyboards, Brevett bass. Knibbs, Lloyd drums. Well the guitar was like Jah Jerry sometime. Sometimes a kid by the name of Harold Mackenzie. And there’s two other guys that happen along, I can recall their names, that would construct the rhythm section. The horns we had Mccook, Roland Alphonso, Lester Sterling, Don Drummond and myself. There was a second trumpet player that sit in with us most of the time by the name of Dillon [Percival "Rupert" Dillon]. I don’t know where he is. I haven’t heard from him for a very long time. That would put the horn section together. We also had a large vocal section. We had Jackie Opel, Lord Tanamo, Tony De Costa, Doreen Shaffer. We had a show band that if we had a show in the theatre we didn’t have to hire no-one from outside.

You seemed to be a bit of a misfit and Don Drummond had personal…

Yeah well, Drummond was on a pedestal by himself in more ways than one. Some people figure he was a bit crazy. Too me he was just highly emotional. Most musicians that are go in the music as deep as he did was often thought of as being not too straight in the head y’know? As the music it demands a very strong level of concentration. The way he went into it he might have done it intensively you know? Very intense his things. Some people think he was crazy.

Did other people recognise his greatness at the time or is it only since

I tell you something. What they got on record as ska is not really the better part of Drummond. He was a very good trombone player, a very good musician. What they got as ska was after he got kind of disoriented. He was an inventive musician and Jamaica is not much of an inventive country. If you invent, people tend to say "nobody don’t know dat”. They like cover versions of things. Things like they import and they have heard already. He was very inventive. So he wound up in the hills like myself you know? And the ska enabled him to re-establish himself in the musical field. He was a much much better trombone player than what you here on records. What you here on records is some watered-down stuff. Coxsone sometimes complain when music too smooth or classical or too much jazz you know? Coz I guess they were looking for something with a different shade y’know. A different shade of black they call it, or green or whatever.

There have been few bands who have dominated the music scene in a country like The Skatalites did in the early and mid-sixties. I mean you only existed for about two years but during that time you were on everything, you were everywhere. It seemed like you couldn’t do any wrong. What was it like being part of that

Oh it was fun. We used to have a heck of a time. Go to the country and things like that and play for different parties, some balls and things. We used to have a great time y’know? It’s just a pity that we couldn’t have stayed together much longer.

Was it the death of Don Drummond that broke up the group?

No I wouldn’t say that. After Drummond passed off, after he got incarcerated that last time, we used to function just the same without him. There were trombone players that we could have drawn for. That could have filled the space. Maybe not like Donald could, but, we could have went on minus Donald and the show would have went on you know?

Of course he was locked up first wasn’t he?

Yes. Most of the times we play he was not there anyway. But, when he was there, his presence was known y’know? He would be outstanding.

So he was a bit unreliable?

No not unreliable. There was times when he would go through that emotional thing whereby he would like sit it out and wouldn’t want to play you know?

Tell us about the day when it all fell apart, The Skatalites.

Well, it’s a bit difficult. The leader figure he could have got a job with someone else. So it wasn’t necessary for him to be a part of that aggregation.

Is that Tommy McCook?

Yeah. But, what happen is that I guess we were a bit short-sighted ourselves. We should have done is allow tommy to go and leave and keep on with what we were doing. I know that eventually tommy was going to come back. But, everybody was so upset from seeing the leader making statements like that you know? So some went back to Coxsone and whole thing fell apart.

Was there much jealousy? I mean you’ve got all these great horn players. I’m thinking between Roland, Tommy yourself…

I wanna tell you. The only problem might have been between Roland and Tommy. The rest of us were getting along quire fine. Myself and Roland would getting along well. Sterling. We had our differences, but, it didn’t get in the way of the music.

When The Skatalites broke off Roland went and joined Coxsone?

He didn’t went and join Coxsone. We all used to work for, work with Coxsone in the studio one.

Tommy took off and worked primarily with…

Duke Reid. Yeah. Coz me said he could have got a job with china man. He found at that china man was really Kes Chin. Coz I went to England with the soul vendors. Myself, Roland, Brevett, Jackie Mittoo from The Skatalites. We went to England. Coming back I went and joined The Supersonics the same band that Tommy had. Worked with Kes Chin some and worked with Treasure Isle studio.

So you worked with both outfits?

Yeah.

In the rocksteady days it seemed to be a progression. Where ska was dominated by the horns, at the beginning of rock steady again there were nice horns laying down melodies, but they began to disappear from the sound.

Yeah. When we came back from England, the whole thing fell apart then. Coz I left the group and went with Tommy so that stable lost something. Because I was one of the major players there. I went to Supersonics. Now Supersonics had a nice horn section if you listen to most of Duke Reid’s stuff you’ll hear a lot of horns playing.

So do you think it was at Studio One where he began to peel back the horns and everything followed?

Yeah. Well. As I said Supersonics used to use a lot of horns. We went to Canada and again The Supersonics fell apart. I guess that was it. The horn players were missing for some and they had to go on so the continued with what they had.

As rocksteady became reggae did you find you had as much work as a horn player?

Yes. I didn’t have a problem there coz how I see it is that Coxsone’s stable was the producer of rocksteady. The reggae, in my opinion, came out of Duke Reid’s stable. Coz the reggae was a bit more on the mento jazz side. The rocksteady didn’t have that much mento or jazz in it. Duke Reid was a person that was in love with the mento. He used to sing a lot of mento bass lines. That contributed a lot to that reggae thing.

What do you think was the greatest recording session that you played at? Which song perhaps?

So many songs its hard to really say which is the best. I like some things special. I like 'Ringo' listen. We did that tune for Yap. Phillip yap. The Skatalites did that for Phillip Yap. I like 'Man In The Street' listen. Earlier tunes I like 'Schooling The Duke' listen. Lot of tunes. It’s hard to remember all of them now.

Could you have imagined back then in the sixties that you would become such a legend now and that you would still have work and that ska would still be so popular and in other parts of the world?

Well if I am to be truthful, I, as an individual, was looking forward to something like that.

Hopeton Lewis passed away. What memories came back to you when you heard the news?

The first thing that comes to mind was the night that myself and my partner Mitch [Sam Mitchell] were riding home on a bus, going home and we thought of the arrangement for his first recording which was 'Music Got Soul' listen and we didn’t the arrangement at the back of a bus and so it turned out to be just great. The record was a hit record but there was more to come you know. Followed by 'Sound and Pressure' listen. That one was another one also. But the biggest one to come was 'Take It Easy' listen. That was recorded I thinking early 1967. You know that one put Hopeton on the map and put rocksteady music on the map also you know? That was the biggest thing man. As a matter of fact, the record that was number one at the time when ‘Take It Easy’ came out was Ken Boothe 'Puppet On A String' listen and ‘Take It Easy’ just kicked it off, off the charts (laughs) and we never saw that any more. ‘Take It Easy’ remained number one for two, maybe three months. You know quite a while?

Many people think that ‘Take It Easy’ was the first genuine rocksteady song. Do you agree with that firstly? Did you think it was different?

No ‘Take It Easy’ was not the first rocksteady song. It was one of three. The very first rocksteady song that comes to mind for me, and I won’t swear to this on my deathbed, but pretty close, was Roy Shirley 'Hold Them' listen for Joe Gibbs. That one was out there already and I think Alton Ellis 'Rock Steady' listen and ‘Take It Easy’. ‘Take It Easy’ is going to be your vying for the second place for rocksteady you know? But I’m almost sure that the Roy Shirley ‘Hold Them’ was number one.

What is your history in the record industry?

Federal Records had a basic modern, uncomfortable recording equipment. We had a pressing plant. We had a mastering plant. And we had the facility to print labels, plus the studio. Now the studio was at that time was A-1. A good engineer, proper equipment, everything. So, Federal Records was the place today in the early days right up to when Dodd got his first studio and West Indies Records [AKA WIRL] was there during the rocksteady time but Federal Records was the place. And that all changed around 1966 when WIRL had multitrack recording and everyone just about started drifting from federal to WIRL like Prince Buster, Sonia Pottinger, Leslie Kong and so on and Joe Gibbs they all left Federal and went to WIRL because WIRL had a new sound that the public loved you know? So things move really rapidly around the 1966 going out to about late 1968 when rocksteady was really hot and was bubbling up in Jamaica and on the charts you know? and the people love this music because rocksteady was so cool man. You didn’t have to be dancing and sweating the way you do to ska music you know? So it was just an awesome time and the groups they have done their homework man, they were much more smooth and tighter now and not only that, producers could listen to the backing track of music and vocals on a separate track and make your decision of how to go about stuff. So rocksteady was unique man and into this day is still very unique.

Hopeton Lewis and myself and my partner Mitch, whose name is on the label, and B.B. Seaton and Max Romeo, all of us, went to the same youth club. We had a youth club that that we used to attend after work you know or after school or whatever to attend. So all of us went to the same youth club and I think Maz Romeo may have been the first one to break away from the club and enter the music business, followed by Hopeton Lewis and that’s how Hopeton Lewis made his debut. ​ Now Hopeton Lewis did not debut with us, he made it for Dodd. He used to be with a group called The Regals. I think the title of his first one was called 'Shammy Back' listen or ‘Shimmy Back’ or something like that. But when he hooked up with us, that put him on the map you know? So it’s a time I remember vividly. We do good things we did great things. Hopeton Lewis was like a one take kind of guy you know, considering he wasn’t that much of a professional yet. We go in the studio and we make a recording, most of the time everything was done in one take, two takes, but not more than three takes.

Are you a founder of Merritone? What was your role at Merritone?

Yes myself and my partner, well first of all, when we start putting records out it wasn’t on the Merritone label it was on the Federal label. ‘Music Got Soul’, ‘Sounds and Pressure’ originally appeared on the Federal label. ‘Music Got Soul’ sold very, very well, but there were other artists on the session and their records didn’t do too well on the Federal label so we decided the public didn’t know or was not attracted to the label Federal. So there was a sound system operator called Merritone, his name was Winston Blake, he owned the Merritone label. So we got in touch with him and we kinda signed a contract with him to lease his name because he was very popular with the uptown crowd you know at that time. So we leased his name to get the Merritone Records going and it worked man. The first record we put on the Merritone label tore up the charts man and after that just was no turning back, not only for Hopeton Lewis, but for the Ethiopians you know and whomever else you see on the Merritone label. And myself and my partner we were the ones that ran those recording sessions at Federal Records with great envy to the other producers because there were so many hit records on the Merritone label and people want to know why we were giving Federal always hit records, we should be producing for ourselves but that’s another story.

When you hear a Merritone recording, it’s so much brighter and clearer than even anything that Dodd was doing or Duke Reid. What do you put that down to?

First of all the recording studio and the producers, meaning myself and my friend Mitch, we were very young, we knew nothing about music, but we knew what the public would react to. So when we go into the studio and record tracks, myself especially, the first thing that would come to mind, okay I can just see the woman in the dancefloor "whining up their bodyline" to this bassline and whatever else. So we say to the bassie, “I want this bassline to be a walking bass and we want this to be a bubbling bass”. Then we go to Lynn Taitt, “we want a sharp ska riff on this one”. Just little tidbits and ideas that we put into these things that worked enormously well you know? You listen to the Merritone stuff, man they’re all completely different from Studio One, Treasure Isle, Randys, Leslie Kong, Joe Gibbs, all those producers. Merritone music stand-up completely different and one of the reasons for that was we had a studio, time was not a factor. Whereas with the other producers, other than Dodd and Duke Reid, you had to lease the studio and so studio time counts. So when they go in the studio, they are rushing like crazy to get as many tracks recorded, you know, because the studio time was not cheap at the time. So with us at Federal because Ken Khoury owned the studio, we have all the time to take to make things right. That is one of the main reasons that the Merritone recordings they stand out so differently.

Can you tell us a bit about what Hopeton Lewis was like as a person?

Hopeton liked to drink you know not too diss him now because he’s not with us anymore, but we all like to drink. Myself and my partner Mitch we drink but controllable, but some people when they get together and good times, but they just drink, drink without stopping and not realise that drinking that much can damage your liver you know? So over a period of time I think that took its toll on Hopeton Lewis. You think you’re on the top of the world, especially when you’re a singer getting all the attention with women flocking around you and whatever, so looking back now that kind of its toll on Hopeton. The drinking was a major factor.

We would sit back after a recording session, we would stop at a bar or we would go home and we would sit on the porch and we would you know elaborate on what we recorded that day, even the day before and we would do some comparison and Hopeton Lewis would say, “you know Keith that idea you came up with for the drum track or talking to Lynn Taitt”. The piano arrangement for ‘Sounds and Pressure’, and that by the way was recorded using a grand piano, I think it may have been a Steinway, I’m not sure. Federal records had just acquired this Steinway in ’66. So, you know, we would sit down and talk about the tracks, we would pat ourselves on the back and say, you know, we were youths who nothing about music, but we were really very smart in the know-how of what the people, the public, would react to in the record shop and the chart and it worked and so it was just green light after that going forward and Hopeton Lewis just came through with it after hit after yet after that.

I’m Going, man, boy. Well I never know I would live 15 or 16. My life I had, I never, I wouldn't even lived as 20. No. Yeah, my god, I past 90 moving up again and it's only God. Only God do that for me. I got through some stuff, man. I can't even talk about them because people who didn't even look at me again as you one being because of the pride, but you must come from somewhere to get somewhere And I coming right back from the pit bat on the pit right at the bottom of the pit. No, I'm over the pit. Looking down in the pit. That's a long journey. That's a long journey.

Well I've got some pride for you, right? I do a radio show once a week. Okay, yeah. You do that every Sunday after the gospel show. And we just did our best of the year, best of 2023 because the year just end. Right. So we do our best blues song of the year, best Rhythm on blues song. Best Soul Song. And best Jamaican song. And this is the song that won best Jamaican song of 2023. You know this one? Oh, beautiful.

My whole personal thing that.

Yeah.

In my band. That's Carib Beat. Yeah. Who can beat that?

Is, is it Val Bennett who playing the...

Val Man played the horn? Yes. But he was in the band Full Caribbean to that Bobby Economic Caribbean that

So did that song. I can't see where that song ever came out on record. Did it ever come out on record?

Well I don't hear it, but a guy from Germany wrote me about it and claimed that he's sending me some money for it because lemme tell you how it will to go. He wrote me and sent me a contract right away. First he heard about send a contract, send this for this and this music, this ke doga and another sound, another weird sound, a

Crack attack?

Piddy boy?

No man

One Way Street Vampire?

None of those.

Some other

Song, it is a woman, I woman's sound, but I don't remember right now, but I can't remember. And he said, sign this and send me back. I didn't sign it, I don't know him. And that's it.

So how did I get this? How did it get out into the world

From the studio stolen, all that, what you play in Stolen?

Stolen from studio.

I do that next studio and we have no money, so just do it in the studio and oh, I can't pay for the studio time. So I come back next week or tomorrow, leave the tip right there. Went down, come back. By the time it playing on Australia, play in Japan overnight. They run off a tape. I in half,

But never came up on vinyl. Just from the tape.

Yeah, just come up and have a few, few, I don't even, no record of them. Only one was street I got record from and they just last year, just last year a guy had to do it and he do it. And

These sessions here, these ones that they stole the tape, where did you do them?

This session? Yeah, West Indies. This which is dynamic and saw them done Pater, Lyndon Pottinger with Gay Fee and some of them done at Federal Studio and SC in particular.

​Do you remember where you did that one? Which one? SC Bodaga. The one we played before

Y Man, that was Western Days. It was Western Days and it was a Wednesday, like 32.

Why you remember the

Day of the week? I remember everything. Wow. I not good at computer, but I remember every song I sing, every song I play. Who played? I remember all of them. I don't have the rings with the computer. I don't know why.

So can you tell us who was the core of the Carib Beats?

Nobody else but I man this man, this man Make of Caribbean until Caribbean split up and fit back again and split again. But nobody managed beat, nobody helped car beat. And that's why I couldn't go no further and just trash it out. But car, anything you see Mark Carib beat, grab it. If it mark Carry, I don't say Carib and be, no, no, that's the word really. But instead of Caribbean, just carry, beat, anything about the Caribbean was done out of my pocket. I'm stolen our here from my pocket.

I should get you to introduce yourself. What's her name and what instrument do you play?

I play a guitar technically I play own a guitar. Those are the men that play the guitar. Mr. Yo Eugene, you are one of my influences. Yeah, a few of them that he really rip up some fire on them, but the rest I played them and nobody else no played. Me and him. We started at nobody house. So we just stuck over that.

And what's your name?

And that is Bobby Akins. But in that secular world, but if I gone in the gospel world, Bobby Ss is my right name. My right name.

And your name is misspelt all the time. Sometimes it's Bobby Atkins. Yeah, sometimes Bobby Akin. Sometimes it's Bobby Akin A KIN. I

See. Oh that's spell the American. Spell it and can But it pronounce Akin fine. Fine.

But I think on your first record, which I have

Ah, arch Bella, that's his word. The one were looking for Arch Bella.

Right. But there was a song called Crackers Rush.

I did that. The first very song I ever did in my life for a song Sister man named KP until Bo grab it and sell it to Charlotte because never wrote my second song with Bo.

It came out on Blue Beat, right? Yeah. But I have it on the Jamaican label. Blues. B-L-U-E-S.

Yes. They do all kind stuff with them. I have no control, I only hear them. I can't do nothing. I don't know who to go to. I sit down and go to bed hungry while the pocket fuller.

I was going to ask you, what is that song about? Because I've never been able to work out what it means. Karo. Yeah.

Well then you are the first man that me that. And I think I want to tell it to you. I don't want why nobody asked me about it. Can't take off my heart. Right, stop you. It was a time when crackers, Jamaican crackers was very scarce and when you go in the shop to buy, if you want a dozen crackers, so then the shop one or two. So I say give me one more crackers just to make my penny pen. You give one two G five, seven. No, six 19 here. One, two, G, 4, 5, 7, 8, 9, 10. You understand? Yeah. Right. So one on missing. So that's why I make it not leaving her, I'm not leaving it. I want it that one to make up my score.

They were rationing the biscuits? Yes, rationing. But they rush it, rushing to get it. Yeah, they rush. Right. And that's spelled Bobby Akins. A-K-I-N-S-A-I-T-K-N. No, A-K-A-K-I-N-S. That's who that was stood out but is akin. Anyway, so who played on that record? Recall is snapping to Beford. He's on piano. Alan Park Drum, John Bagel Pego and another wild guy that I picked up on to play, to play guitar. And it was kind of there. And then saxophone, the guy, they call him number one, a saxophone is he wore really a number one. That was his name was number one. Yes, that's the name we know. Really? Yes. And then the thing you see him, you see with him is number one. You see. So we don't know what the number one, there's some funny names. Wasn't a saxophone player called Blues? Just called Blues One. You ever hear him? I know Blues, but Blues a bass player. Oh. Oh

By the way, can you keep recording in case something goes wrong? We've got a backup. Yes, yes. Thank you. So the crackers rush, did you hear it in sound system or did you ever get a copy?

Yes, yes. Had a copy one time and because I wasn't in the music much, I just come in and mess around and just getting around and different kind of lifestyle was in construction, jumping around.

You were working in construction at the time?

Yeah, I'm a good construction guy. When music slow, that's where I go. And when that slow I go back to music.

How old were you when that came out?

Cracker as Rush

61. I

Was about two. What? Thirties? Thirties they were.

So you had a couple of releases of On Count P. Well you had the other side was Hello. But then you worked with Prince Buster Proper on Never. Never.

Yes. No, it is now. When I did Crack Rush, he heard it and I think he love it because it was blues. Because those days, boy don't play blues. Not everybody play blues. Even right now you talk about blues, they don't know. So one day I just get musical, I don't know, I just get musical and a lady had a little hand tape and I took it and I started to sing. So I sung Never, never. It wasn't made up yet. But I like Louis Prima and then they love some of these girls sing group girling. They sing All Lay On and Louis Prima. So I put piece of Louis, piece of Louis piece of that grew up and piece of myself and it come out to Crackers Rush Never, never.

No. Trevor Charlie.

Charlie was there. Charlie was there. The one that I got to bed hungry with

Was a big hit,

Biggest hit not for me yet. I get to bed hungry. Not even food to eat, but let me straighten this part, this song, it was new one I was talking about a while ago. It was Isabella, the other side.

The other side. Oh yes, Isabella.

Yeah, this is that was the one that took pri.

Oh this is the one with the Louis pri in it.

No, Isabella. Yes, that is the one I make up with three different songs. But never, never. I just did that.

You said Prince Buster didn't pay it proper.

It's a long story, right? I took the little tape that the lady had now and went down to Duke read a place where they do recording and all that and principal just saw me there and said, what's up Mr Never Mr. Cracker Rush. They call you your first record, already name you by your first record that you make. Said what up from Crock ro? I said, I'm here. He said, what you have there? And I said, I said alright, what up, what up? And I took out some money, I think it was five bones or eight bone and give it to me just like that. I said meet me at Dynamic Tuesday morning with the song just like that. I was broke, I was hungry, I almost naked. And that was big money for me, man, just give you some money like that and say meet me them. He said. I said okay. So I went down no for the cutting. I've never, never, he loved it.

Well he loved it so much that he ripped it off.

Yeah. So he sent me down. That's speed up that.

That's Prince Buster All stars rerecorded.

Yeah. Nothing about that. Yeah, no the speed change him.

Oh you think he's the same recording? You just said

C, just peel it faster.

I think they add some horn too that

Like

Scar horn,

Like this late one that I did Kiss Baba like that. Like that. They just add something to it and change the name

And doesn't pay you again. I bet.

Nothing. Nothing.

So who were your favourite artists, American artists that inspired you?

American artists. I really have no have no American artist favourite or the Ray Charles. That's a guy with me. But otherwise

Were you like Louis Priman?

I loved him. Yes. I love style John and Louis Priman much. He ain't steal. Same kind guy. But otherwise I love nobody else because they never hold me. I have a whole stuff in here. We don't have no space to can contain their stuff. I went charge about Phillip up looking somewhere to put it out. Tell we go to the studio and I'm going to tell you the Isabella, just because I was in jail, the two stuff that I make it not meant to be that I meant to be but the musician following my move and believe that I made a cut and the cut too. You understand? And I don't say I just leave it like that. I know that don't even know it the cut because I was using my hand and I was technically dancing while I singing the court work it all too. So that's a mistake that become a beef stick.

So how did you learn guitar? Did you teach yourself? Did you have a teacher?

Yeah, no, I cannot do anything without that teacher. That teacher God himself. Yes. I've been given the gift of guitar one night. One night I wake up the other man and playing. Never had a guitar, never bought a guitar, never borrowed a guitar. But it lead me to the story that I had in my book. I was in the reeling back because to learn the guitar, I have to go back down in the pit because I was thrown in the pit to die. My parents die and I was on the street, me and my little brother, nine and 10-year-old and they never had nowhere to put me. The government have a place where they teach children musical thing. But when my sister, my big sister took me there, we were too big for that. Only place she could put me is in the arms house, the poor house you hear about arms house, a poor a place here come out back, still there and dead.

That's why she put us because she couldn't carry us home. Our husband was against us coming at his house. So she put me right in the arms to Wil brother, eight or nine, 10 years old, hundreds of big old people is there in that institute is a big institute. And I want to feed you and calm unself. You understand? And the long story, if you read a book you see a lot more. But I don't give any much to hear. And the government, I said government have a school where they collect the children and teach them music. But we were too old to join that school. But one Christmas, the government, since those kid come to that institute where we at to play music, man to guy, 10 years old, 12, 10, 12, 14 plays a big fat instrument. Sometimes when they stand up at to blow it, tired on him said what this man, what doing? And when I look around in the Christmas season, they come to play the Christmas sound for us to entertain, entertain, entertain. Remember that word?

And they did a session in the night and went away. And when they gone all clear from the, we was in the institute, thousands of people in there. They got the people sick, they were bringing in when they're sick and old and they die and go. But we did so young, what God said let good when the kids leave, when he left the place and gone back, me alone, my liquor brother sit down. So let me leave my little brother out of it right now. Just me. I said, God I don't know you. I hear people talk about you. I see them go to church and dress up themself to feel good. I don't know what I said. But if you are a true God, if you are really for real, give me the music that when I leave this compound I can go through the world and entertain others.

That's the word I used in my 10 years old the night and the other man, I wake up, I got a in tin and a piece of board and I start to make up a guitar, a banjo, a little ping ping and tie some electric wire on it and start to ping, ping, ping, ping that says one night, the first night. And I said, all right. And while I was there, ping, ping, ping, ping, I started to go up the scale and corner. I know the scale do. If I was a Latino, I tried to play it not how it should play. But I, the sound and little guy from over the other side of the institute heard me and said, Hey boy, I hear if you want to reach some place, I got little banjo. I go give it to you. And he went family to ban goat skin banjo and give it to me. And man I catch up some fire on that bun until it burn off. I pray something, I pick, I pick, I pick, I picked it, I start pick good and it break up. So that after I left that institute they two another institute again, Le Institute, granted we have leprosy, we can't stay in the institute because we have leprosy. Take us to the other leprosy institute in Spanish town. And we spent two years there. A Chinese doctor came there and said, what these guys doing in here take them out.

So they moved me again. But when I went to that institute, they had instrument there man. And I worked them, no schooling, just music and cut grass at the time institute so big. And then I did two years there. So the Chinese doctor said take them out and I take them out. I put me on another institute two more year again. So my life just spent shovelling through the dump and so on. And it was kind of good there. The people had a guitar there, the last one. And I worked that guitar every evening I worked that guitar. But before that I skip a big piece. But if you read the book you'll see it. I used to feed from the garbage thing, the garbage you eat and throw in the garbage at the roadside. I used to feed from that. When mom and papa died, my grandfather died nowhere to sleep, nowhere to drink, nowhere to eat, wear clothes that if you took me you dirt stick on, no place to sleep, no place to wear nothing.

So I go the in the symmetry and a broad tomb and I'll take a nap on the tomb because the sun is hot and clothes is I extreme beside it to I just wait up the clothes and put them and just sleep there. And until it dry get up, move again and go out and start the garbage thing to find food to eat. Then I leave from there. I go to the donger where the truck load and unload. You know the place, the truck I unload stuff, garbage dump stu. Garbage dump. And then you'll have the pig and the goat and the cows and the dogs and everything digging me digging too. Amen. I start it in the book there too. And the picture too me digging too. And sometime when I see something to pick up the dog, whatever them would rush me and I would rush him back because I want to pick it up first. A piece of bread, a piece of old dumpling, a piece of piece of old banana. I pick it up, brush it off from the dump in the dump where dog and cold shit every day I didn't have it. And then I wasn't rude, I use that word because it was what happened. I tell you what happened in the past and I don't want to change the world to make it look good. That's what happened.

The animal sit and we take it up and wipe it up and eat it not catch me anywhere. I sleep. That's where I sleep as well. To stand up and sleep. Yeah you so reach that part. And so far as a far to reach is very reached. Now the dump, the last place the institute, we just was there until we reach 18, 19 the send man road. Now they have to let me go because government more then I get Jan Young because I have to eat, I drop the trailer, I don't have the body. So I general gang, I sleep where they sleep, eat what I eat, steal what they steal. But I never got to jail. All of them go to jail except me because I had it here I am not going to jail. I am going to learn a trade and I had it all.

So even though I could ping pong, the guitar, liquor, but I go in and the story is very long. But I get to learn that trade I from my uncle and all this happened because my mother and father all Jamaican and they married and went to Cuba as a honeymoon and never contact nobody back in Jamaica till 10 of us born over there, 10 of us has no contract. So they have Ahad and father, all the rest people in Jamaica have them up and I don't around them. So when they come back to Jamaica we had little kid and quakes after they just die. So that caused all these things that we all living like crab and laser on the street just like that. Now John and the young, they would go and steal and all that thing and come on out. But I be the watchman all the while watching when the police coming for everybody coming. But one night I was at a place where they decide to tear on a place I must've killed the man or what, but I was the watchman that time I was like 21, like 21.

In those days police don't not like these. They wear a hilltop helmet on the ride horses and a beat duty in the night. So one night I was there, this guy named gone down the road to go do them stuff and I'm up the road watching to tell him, well right there believe it. Yes or not. I see a seen, I see Cuba and I start to cry. God I know I'm coming from and I shouldn't be here. My father, we had it in Cuba. We had two cars in Cuba and a big upstairs out in the bakery. I'm coming and doing all this thing Job Jamaica car.

And I say I'm going, they got them down there trying to get into my house and I turned they down the knot and I turned the other side, leave one right away, walk 30 miles one night. I know about my uncle, they be the contractor. I walk, walk, walk, walk. And when I reached the house, I knocked the window. I was like two o'clock or something. I said, me, Bobby, oh your mother. I said, no Don don't call the name. I wasn't there, I didn't do nothing. I am here. I need help. And gave me two shilling that time. Two shilling, a big money, very big money and a big pants. A big pants. Could I wrap around me two times? Yes. And he said meet me at University Gate in the morning because he was the contractor at the university building a big tech contractor. So everybody set me on to work. Now I learned how trade, I said okay. And I walked there now another 18 mile to go to university. And I reached there in time, stay at the gate and finish sleep.

The morning he called me, he set me on to the watchman and said let this boy stay with you. I teach him trade. And from there I learned to trade so fast. You wouldn't believe it until they gave me a name, they called me. Good, good. I lay black fast, I plaster fast, I do everything and I do it good when the whole gang start to go to lunchtime at daytime me pick up the tool, I'm fooling with it. I want to come back quick Mason, good mason too. And I live to see that man asking me to hire him man. I start to work, get contracts and blah it start right there. Then I start to getting the music now but it of instrument and blah blah blah. And we was to the musician. But I make my own instrument because I'm good at them stuff and all the musical area here. I made the guitar on the bass and one time I had a two neck guitar too. A bass. I have the picture of it too. And I turned it into one, turned it into two, split it again, same one and come out. Never come out of it. So

On all your recordings, were you playing guitars you built?

Yeah, everyone. I never buy a guitar until I reach up here.

Wow, that's unbelievable.

I never buy a guitar reach up here. You see I made it and it had a song that nobody has. You understand? And because I didn't play it all right, this is the master. He knows that you have to read a book, you have to go by certain rules. He know everything. He a big time teacher. I don't know nothing. I just pick around and what song go to me, I put together and even to the right now, I can't read music. I think in the first year way I know that. No I know. Oh I carry music. But don't make around sound. You can spoil the music and I'm here. No way. True. Your ears are sharp. No way.

I mean in band I've been in band to get the light. I've been out with all different bands, carry the music. But I know sound, I don't know what the card name but I know how it sound. And I just make my card. I play. I just play. Never a man show me anything on a guitar. Never a man show me anything on a banjo. Nothing at all. Never. Never would I teach plenty people. Songs. Songs. I know this monkey. I tell you some what most of what I know song more how I know myself. Just make around so I tell you. So I'll tell you I to keep you. I just God give it to me. So because I make that arrangement with the planet, the devote God said when I come out. So when I get converted now I make sure even before I converted, I love church and I find the church and pray for them and pray for them and pray for them all.

Even though I'm doing it right now, I'm playing for church right now. And the thing about it, when I was in the secular world, nothing was just in the studio world with the all guys and in wrangling kids stood that and saw Moran Shakespeare. I slide on Barron Glad and Hawks Brown and all kind man. And I played all kind of right Shirley, I sing, I play for him a lot when they're rehearsing the song, I'm outside smoke a cigarette. I don't rehearse with nobody, no just rehearse. I ready cut out. So I come inside said okay move. And I move with them like where we did. I have that kind of talent. I know when I'm going next, when I leave this I know where I'm going next. And because of that I can flourish. I can't make flourishes for the song even before I hear them. Yeah, yeah. And who tell this? My God tell you a lot about my substance touching music. I do music in him seriously. But what I guy don't, nothing. And I just kick it off and ing up and everybody start to tell you, oh ow we bringing rocks to the we bringing nothing. They dunno how actually come in. They dunno how reggae come in. They dunno how scare come in. They don't know how soccer come in. They dunno what it is. They call everything from Jamaica and call the reggae and it's wrong. I bring that thing I say I heard I something just do that I did with Mike because show you anytime on me and my time. And so

Reggae music, it started first with Kaso Ultimate Brother. Will you have it?

I've got it if you want me to play it.

It is so like you papa,

So

Like you.

Who is that guitar

Player that say it sound like you?

I wasn't there yet.

No it wasn't me. It wasn't me. But we have a better Es in Rock Steady.

Oh okay.

Yeah. That everybody wanted and I hang on to it man. This is not They one we have right though We have it

One that you did back when and you just have it on a tape or is this

No, my since it since I up here, since I copy up, I played that and I have the Rock 31 Rock.

You should record that here. Yeah, you could

Record that. It's recorded already. Oh

Done.

Yeah, from Jamaica. I do from Jamaica. I bring it up and I don't give nobody a piece of it. Oh

What year did you do it?

I think it is right in 67.

Oh you should sell that. You should take it to Japanese and get them to sell it

Japanese. No, no, no.

Can I get, this is making a bit of noise on the microphone. This plastic bag,

This

Plastic thing. I'll put it here. Is

That right? The plastic thing?

Yeah. Do you mind I put that there. Is it just come up on the thing?

Follow

It always sounds louder on a recording. I'll just put that there. But you were saying, so you saying start off me

Have long way better than that. I not cal it Rocks steady. Rocks steady Love Steady did it in Jamaica. Yeah, did it in Jamaica.

Man there's money long, way better than that. There's money to be made on putting that out. I'm just telling you, you could put that out and make some money. But you were saying so Jamaican music, what people don't know is it's not all reggae. It start with Calypso mento.

Well I started out with Calypso with my brother. I did, but I haven't got more than that Then. Then it go up to the scare. The scare, they go up to the rock Steady cause there other blues between the two scare and then go up to the reggae. Then they bring in the soak car that they're got to treat and get that. But Rock Steady is reggae, choppy, choppy, choppy, choppy. I got the mother of Chuck up up, Chuck up, Chuck up. I want just cha cha cha. So reggae and rock. Two ing music because So what is on there? You played them My rocks today. They're not sweet but just 200 re style put down there Chicken. Okay, see? See him go. What you call Mark? I told Ray, Ray,

I'll give you an example. See this is one of my favourite rocks today. So

I remember this

Baby. I

Lovekin. Yeah,

That's rock steady. That is rock Steady. If they strike look longer, it'll be a scare sky. What? They just, if that short, the liquid language would be a scar music, but it attracted the music. That one.

So that's 66 when scars slowing down, right? Yeah, bit like this one is but they

Call it anything then just give it anything.

This one is right on that edge of scar. Rock steady too. See if you remember this one

Box George Rock Steady speed up Ka speed up.

Yeah. Who were the rulers? Do you remember them? Yeah. Yeah

I I'm more too, what about the Jamaica and Ethiopians? Nothing for Ethiopians. All them JJ sang them then maybe I I'm to them. Yeah.

You recorded a lot for Rio records?

Yes, yes, yes. And still got lot, lot of time to a bit hungry while we doing them No money.

We were playing before a song. Oh by the way, before we get to that, so can we just get quick facts. Did your gang have a name? The gang you were in? Did it have a name?

No, it just a random thing. Just young guy just start group up together and just go around and steal.

What part of

I about anything. Just steal that movie. I go around and we share it to part no gang had a name. We never

What was your yard then? Where was it? In

​Kingston. On the street. Infield town. Town. Just just thi and go.

And so your parents were born in Jamaica but they went to Cuba and had you

Kids there? 10 of us there. And now we come back to Jamaica. All God, me alone, alive, all nine, dead me alone alive. And I know that purpose. Why God keep me back. None of them. I live my age. None.

And what else was I going to say? What age were you when your parents passed?

When they passed? My father, well I was like six years old. My father passed. I was like eight years old. My mother went to, and when I say my father passed, he wasn't dead but they grabbed him and took him to a place, the Spanish, the leprosy. So he left it. But I never know I was a man that your ain gone to work. I don't know when they send me el, I meet my father there. Kai know. Tell say I'm coming. They said I meet my father now at 12-year-old and we left him there. And instead until he died,

You were talking about blues came before Calypso and Scar. Right? What I love about this record is

The blues is the old one. The old one. The first one.

Yeah. So on this record, I don't know if you arranged it, you can tell me. But it starts off with the blues and then goes into rock Steady

Lord Jesus. Hello that number.

So do you need this one? Listen, same guy.

Sorry sir. Hello. And break off two little branch, go have a tree and give Winston. I say Winston you play the drum tonight. And he did. I never leave that drum until it become Winston going on.

So Winston went and played drums Most of the time.

All the time, yeah.

And what about keyboards? Who most often play keyboards with the characters

Was a lot of people. Tony, one guy named Tony mc Beam, he then, most of the time it was Ro Conrad. Cooper. Cooper. And another time it was what this guy, I forgot his name. His name, he was an Collins. But I taught him too. He was my baggage boy. Whenever we go he pack the baggage and pack. Come home. No, no music. I one day I said I see and he sleep at my home too. He didn't but I go home, I said I went down down one day I saw this piano, electric piano for 100 pound and I bought it, took it home and I said S come this name A so, and that was it is an Collins. He never leave start to play first for me and start play for everybody I know an Collins talking of. But oh I played, I started talking about cook and all lie I started nothing. He start at my home, sleeping at my yard, playing my piano, feeding me, feeding him every day. Every day the musician, they find my home with that big, that big circle yard. Everybody know that place. I would cook at work, curing dinner, calm me, floor dumpling every day. Every day first, first year that and all come to get a dumpling there too.

So what musician come around to your yard?

All those who? The one who work with me, the fellow guy come because dumpling Bobby every mid the big cur Flo dumpling and sal and butter and they come eat and go. I stay there and get till they learn until they learn, never get into play. So for more and we had a big fun.

So other than Ansel Collins, what other artists were you close to friendly with or you helped or they helped you or who were your friends in music?

A lot. A lot. A lot. A lot. They asked me question plenty and I showed them what the lead guitarist, I showed a lot. One day I was going to Jamaica and he was coming out Jamaica Ram meet at the airport and where the reach and stop and he said, Barry you are here. I said yes. And he put down the guitar strap. He take up the guitar of his back and said everybody look here. This is my teacher, this is my teacher. Big airport crowd. Just advertisement like that. This is my teacher because they know him, they take him by the champion. So he showing everybody say, oh my champion was sitting man who bring the champion. I see him here. I didn't feel good still but it I take it too loud.

That's Chin Smith. Yeah,

Chin Smith. Nice guy. Yes. Last time I go down there it show me a photograph. I would take photograph together and I mix up So too I make, oh God if I no like this I carry something but I make some sound without that purpose too. I don't just make a well song. It have some purpose.

Yes, I'm in Jamaica. I fly to Jamaica tomorrow night. So maybe I said Una Smith when I'm down there,

I don't know the area but I think he's punched

Over. No he's got a yard in Kingston. I've been to his.

You went there?

Yeah, he's saying last time I was there, Ken Booth came and sang his big, big yard.

Nice guy. One

As his big Rasta orchestra kind of thing. Yes. So you were doing the early Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe he got it after you.

I was there and he had some picture there with me and we take some picture together. But I showed one he had something to do and he didn't know what to do. And I show him, I run on the guitar and I show him that run. He said that make me and him close up. I run on the guitar that he never hear no anybody with it and say well move from this to that. I just tie them together on one big run. You you know them stuff but tie up two or three cards together. You got a good lick.

Yeah, I'm got play you a song and when I finish you tell me what you remember about it or what you think about it. Right.

No that's a different paragraph though. Right. Last one, that last song I made last secular song. This don't get nothing you me, Jack and Guy.

A drama guy.

Yeah. Who and drums? Yeah, no him name Alan Scott. Alan Scott.

And what's he playing?

Drum be playing and Jackie playing bass with the left foot and I going up here two Decorat, the left foot alone. You hear it now you see it in the picture. They show you bungalow white people on it. But then saw a three black man played me, Alan Scatter Jack too. Nobody else. Nobody else.

How did that session happen?

Charlie was there too. Charlie was there but blowing up and just say so and say can wheat two times Can wheat. So he have the name of the song in it too. They take the call four hours. Nobody is, but what I see on the picture on the CD is a bone black eye blown. Never, never. Then four of us Charlie can beat and that mute a beat. I brought it from Cuba noise. It sounds very cute one to me. Yes, that's exactly what I said. It brought it from Cuba and another one I brought that from Cuba too. Nobody else said they know it. I brought it, God four years old. I was in Cuba when I hear all these music I had rive here. I don't know why but

So you reckon you brought that rhythm

From Cuba? Yes. I come to Jamaica and played and played and then printed a mash up the nce and they all thing they play with it, conversation, all kind stuff, whatever. I brought that beat from Cuba.

So you think it's related to my conversation Rhythm

Do

It's related to my conversation rhythm. Is that what you say?

Anything it play with anything we were playing dear. I planned to see to the conversation cause it was car that's again full car beat again now with Bonnie Lee. Touch him. Oh Lord.

Is it true that my conversation licked the drummer came up with that?

No my me bro. You don't tell them what to play Band leader. Anytime I say me carried the band leader,

Yes, but that record you don't get it doesn't say the Cara beats. I didn't even know you were playing on it.

No they're none going to say that. A lot of stuff Bunny Lee make you don't know. You don't even hear my name earlier. I don't even get paid or Bunny Lee and Scott Perry. The whole of my sweat. Hold of my sweat.

What did you do for Scratch?

Holy heap buried him for him. Holy heap whole heap. Me too. I get lunch money. I played a lunches share for two person.

Let me play a song first. I love this song. I dunno why it's an early one from you. You did for a producer. We haven't mentioned yet

Today I stand before you Mr I pray that you won't.

I welcome. Lemme know Champion come back. Nowadays that whole album, their mines, mine Mine, my Prince King Edward Thief. I finally do it. Up to this day you did not all same. 1960 I think 66 and 67 I went to the studio and I make me song them and give a change to make up for studio. You ain't give me. But for the days this song make I don't seem to this day. To this day I don't see again only hearsay in England working in coal mine. So here nothing more. I go to Jamaica, I can't find him. King Edwards, I heard it all Doors on my son stolen and he could other watch. I put my name on them because it would be unfair words but me to them, I arrange them out to them.

Is that all that King Air with stuff like prime Minister State or the instrumental or

Everything that is on with the labour Giant Labour Giant.

Everything. We catch it. Good side of mistakes. Every one. The 12 song. I match my music personally. Music, when he go us to that period, he at the keyboard. He at the turntable. Mr. He and he wanted to tell you something. You're not going to believe it. One hour I take out to the 12 some one hour, one hour I joke. But one hour. That's why went Tamari came to my home with a guy, the guy let him know it was there too. And there's one hour you can do because those time one hour, if you know what you're doing, you can do some playing music band. But if you know what you're doing trouble from a tight band. Yeah. One hour I just caught no playback caught no playback cut, no playback cut 12 time. And I hear them and I go to you know where I hear it.

First in England after I done cut his session, he was calling my way to America to his brother and he just took a session and move. See I know but I'll got England go buy it off the shelf. They normally have a whole seedy of it now. Yeah, whole CD of it. No Avenger. Yep. My purse that money do that. Nobody can sue me for nothing. But if I wanted to pursue whatever, I could have sued the war, whatever. But I don't fight about it for nothing soon that I left Garden and then soon then too. I missing soon. That so far done. I'm all right, I'm living and I just steal to live.

Did you ever work with Mr. Goody? Very much. I much with him with secular and gospel. I have a gospel that it mix for me. Oh my god I still have it. When it stood the breakdown, it was passing through on the dynamics and I said go to mix. And he just take it up, up, put it down. I said whoop mix set me up. And when he died, no but was one the no yes. Was one the best engineer C Buckner. C Buckner was very good. Yeah, I remember C, yeah C very good guy. But one coming down in food after I ask these my do ask they what to do when you see them asking you too much question. They're learning from you and you have to pay them to learn them.

Did you ever see any members of the Caribs, the original Caribs, the Australian band, the car, Dennis Ry

Dennis? No, I never used to them. Neither am never used to them neither. And one A, just something I never used to them. Never played nothing with them.

Well he did play with Charlie er a lot.

No, he played with us. He was in the band. Oh yeah. Yeah. Already in the band. We started together. Me and him started with Caribbean together. Me and him. I

Love this song. This may be one of my favourite records that I own, right? This one.

Now his liquor village that his own that's Charlie is own with Can Ride playing with the same hundred pound piano. They knew but it got it over now. But it don't sound like this. This is the original environment.

Yeah, there's a second version of it. But this is the rock steady versions.

They were not about that's the first cut.

So Charlie, what was he like?

Charlie? Charlie no more

Good singer too on that track. Did he write that one little village? Yeah,

Yeah, yeah. He makes a few some otherwise but I don't hear them.

Yeah,

You hear man about town.

Don Drummond. Which one

Then Charlie come in it in the venture, the group with the

King. You got the better of me there. I'm pretty good. But I didn't know that one. You worked with Evan and Jerry. Jerry being Jerry Mattias out of Mate

Music. I love his music. It started to be, I was in Caribbean also.

Jerry was

Jerry

On Mattias.

What name again? Jerry. Hold on. So then near Miss. Hold on, hold on, hold on. Mark something. Jerry, Yuan, mark Jerry Yuan Mark. So like that

Yuan

Yan. Yeah, Yan Yoan Yan.

You and McDermot

Dermot. Yeah. That's my friend. Yeah. Very good man. He cool man. Oh

Yeah, he's the yuan in Yuan. And Jerry is Yuan McDermott?

No, Jerry

And who's the Jerry?

Jerry look like one of his son. His son sing with him too. His son sing with him And man is fighting now over the tape. And I have a few of them but I have fool because not my own.

And I mean your brother obviously was in music too but you never recorded with him. No, that's Laurel.

No, no me no good. He was so jealous of me. I'm full and gifted. I didn't know it. And from before even music days, he tried to push people side so I don't get to surpass him in life. The first album I make, I stole it until they took Amman Hayat at Spencer Road at Dr. Man. Dr Man job store man named Hayat first album. I stole it. I have it Hayat give it the money to make it and me make it for me. And Hayat I where my brother come from England, he might hire was two key friend more than key and the take C the thi for me, I make it a lp. I took it to England and sell it and give Hyatt 100 pound and that's it. I either don't get nothing and it was a blue beat labour, I don't get nothing. And I remember so sound was on it. Trouble

Was that scar stuff.

Scar stuff have bending

And

I have to go check it to go the rest of whatever brains.

I'd love to hear them. I dunno what songs those are. But anyway, so you and Laurel never got on? Never,

Never. When he went to England, I was on my face but still play music. So I write him, I said why where those send for me? Let the boat us be in England and tear on England. He showed up your backside, you two bulk rain in a wild pen. In other words you can't have two champion one place while him do it. And he was don't even know what I play. My brother don't know what I play. I went to England twice and then passed me out every day and they check me afraid of me because in young days he know I was good at this. I do good back and I punch hard and see me do things already. And I'm afraid to face me can believe I would knock him out too. He know that you're wrong. So he don't bother me. So I go to England and try to find him.

I but alright, stay down, pass you today. He really pass and go down to the studio, go. I go back every day, run a place, never check me and I go back. I again, 92, 91, 92. I go back 98 save until again and keep away from me. Ask me, is what you play is what you play? No. You still play the bass guitar, play guitar, play for myself, especi. I not get rid guitar. He don't know what I play. But it was jealous. I don't want me because in his banner among his people and in dicey way, the last thing he asked me, Mr. Judge and jury, that time I think he was sick. I assume get sick. He said, did that sound judge and jewellery who did it? Me Are you because it's sounded alike. I said even you do this, you'll remember that in my tune. But as brother, do what you want to do with it and look after him died.

So he don't know what he don't know to play. Not even that. And it's a shame. He's a she man. I thought to him, sorry, I sorry, I sorry. You know what? He did all my song in uk. He came down one time when I was going to school, I said school. The government gave me a place in school One time when it was setting me up to go the teacher, the training centre to teach construction, the government send me to school for a year and just do that in six in eight months. Done while I was going to school I could jump around the studio every day go after to go to school. My brother came down and we got to Tubby. So he come to buy our steel Joan. So he know I have the music, he know I have five tape, take me around Tubby and give me 400 ju candle after every tip.

He said, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Nobody like that. I didn't know what they did. He got me full. Got me full. He said, I want to know where you live and in talk to Toby. In other words give Toby the tip. I said roll them out till we come back. He going to walk, walk from there to my home. But the time we come back and roll out all of the music, that's what I consider the guy hear them after that England to they roll them off for him and get favour to that. But that work, he just advertise me. He advertise me. No problem.

Well you've had an incredible career like playing in these records that probably didn't seem like anything at the time. They're just local thing and then they're all over the world now. Yeah. How do you feel about that?

I go through kind feelings, kind of feelings. But what I have, nobody can take it from me. And I try to, I party as many as I can because I have to leave a legacy back here and a lot out there already a lot out there. Santa Davis a good job of that too. He play for me too and I show him, he bring me took control thing too and wasn't great. Jovan plenty. Tell them what they were. Me where we teach music as much as I can. I know I teach them licks. You see, I know that have certain thing of a certain song and a certain way to word certain. I know that in the book master I can't tell you. But I never learned it that way. What I learned with no music, I just use anything. I do anything but I get the sound. So I couldn't just teach a man how I know it. But I teach him the song and sometimes I hold it. I show how I hold it as a big inversion and some wild inversion too. But I'll get the song I want.

Well that's like Roscoe Gordon told me he taught himself piano but his sister got lessons and he would listen through the door and then go to the piano and he didn't know how to do it. He just got it till he got the sound right.

That is one. That's good. But what I'm telling guitar, we have to find the song before we can bring it out. They don't want to lay down on the piano, just lick what you want. We have to go find it before we can leak it. So the brains were treat them as hard. Yes.

Guitars are top of instrument than a piano.

And that's why I trombone is I run crazy five times. Five times it worked harder than the other man. Five times guy about to fire son and drop. I take that me right before motor trombone had to get killed. Crazy. Worked too hard. He brain worked too hard. I mean I know that not I should have God give the music before without I buy a book. So I don't want buying a book now. I just satisfy what God give me and can I say, well God do this for me. He know that I was dumb. I never got to school. So all you got to tell you about no school in there. No school. When I 43 years old, government gave me a school for a year to teach construction because they wanted to teach and school. And I was so good at construction when I was told I was go up there for audition, I was the third one is, oh you ready for school right now?

And they sent me for to a school I'd already to take their teaching. Yet I have all the practical but I need some theory. So I said, well you get your teaching. I tell them, I said, well you need some teaching. But right now when the mans are going to sit and right to school from interview to school and the mother guy stay here and learn and come out and when everything is sacred down, we got to take my one ear. We just done one time come back three different big schools that teach. We leave the biggest one in America. So I'm definitely that construction man. But music is, the sideline was supposed to be my first line, but they were work out. So I still looking a man who I confident with music as I come here and say all You're still playing? Yeah.

Oh yes. That's fantastic. Something to do. Yes. Can't stop. Long as the finger move, long song going to be there. Wow. I do a like gospel and kind of it kind of funny like with that guy named Mikey. Mikey, but what I can't get you Eugene and Time against me. I find this guy named Mikey. He can't do a little and give you this. So he give me a copy of it, but I don't like the copy I didn't give and cd. So that's a thumb drive out there. Yeah. So it make it to one know it wasn't in Regg step. What they make it back just one drop? No. So I don't hear so.

How did 'When the Sun Goes Down' listen come about?

I like anything. Anything comes to my head, I swear I can come up with it. I understand every theory of music. That's why I can become that, become this. I knew that type of a song. Steve Cropper and I, we recorded that song right after Stax had just about finished over at Trans-Maximus Studio, which is, Steve had a new studio. We went off in the studio. He had some new musicians, and they were all playing. Rock guys, or country and western. Only soul person was me and Steve. We came up with this album. I came up with the album called, I'd say a rock album. He said, okay, my interpretation of it. We came up with the song, "When the Sun Goes Down." As I'm singing that, we only did it one time because you couldn't just sit down and write that. We put the music together because I wrote that song as we sung it. I didn't know what words I was going to say other than "when the sun goes down." I just made it up. [sings 'When The Sun Goes Down'].

The band is listening. I said, "Come on." [sings]. They said, "Oh, yeah." We're just talking, and they're listening. We got the groove on. Guitar player felt a little [sings]. It just went into a thing, and everybody kind of just played. I bet you money nobody would be ... I don't know if we could ever could do that in person unless, well, we could. But, then we'd have to write everything down the way what came out on the tape.

You'd go out and listen to it and transcribe it all, work out what you did when you made it up.

Yeah, I would know the lyric by now by listening at it, and Steve would have to know what he did, that's that, the build-ups and the slow-downs, but we did a complete album of that called 'Down to Earth'. I don't know if you had the whole album or just that one song.

Well, it's an album called 'Down to Earth' that Stax, as they were closing, that album got in at least to be released, but it was too late for Stax.

They couldn't push it or anything.

No, they didn't push it. It's now out on Concord Records that has the Stax label, all of their records. Concord Records here in the US, and actually, it's brand new again. That one song that you're talking about is on a brand new album out of the clear blue sky. When I got the album, it had 'When the Sun Goes Down' out of that rock album from years ago. That's strange, you mentioned that.

It was on the Stax Profiles CD. That's where I heard it.

Okay, that's the one.

My friend drew it to my attention. He said, "Incredible."

They just released that Stax Profile on various artists, and they stuck that song in there.

Well, I'll tell you what, if they promoted that right, that could be a hit. It missed the first time, because like you said, STAX couldn't push it.

But, you know what will happen? I'll be on a show, and somebody will say, 'When the Sun Goes Down', just like they said, 'Big Bird' listen. Maybe I'll eventually-

You'll have to learn it or something.

Yeah, start doing that one, too.

Well, I do. I think it'll be a tough one to get down.

Oh, no. I bet you it wouldn't.

You don't reckon?

No, because when you mention the song, I can now hear all those little parts. I can even-

I'm not worried about you. I'm worried about the band.

Oh, no. Well, yeah, they have to slow down and have to build back up, but if you've got a production, they can do it. They can do anything. It was like here in Memphis on the Memphis in May show yesterday. We had three musicians on the stage. They didn't even know the songs. We were doing all of that. The bass player, he had never heard 'Big Bird,' and he played it. He said, "Wow, that's awesome. When dd you record that song?" Right after we finished the show, because our regular bass player had another show and didn't know that I was going to be on the Memphis in May show. The bass player was out. The horn players, they were out. They got two other horn players, with all these people in Memphis. This is what I was saying about, this is the Memphis music, ladies and gentlemen. That's what the music is all about. Everybody contribute a little something into that music. It's really very simple. The reason I was saying that is because we've got some new people in the back and nobody out there. No.

I think 'On a Saturday Night' listen, you said that they'd never done before.

That's what I'm saying.

They nailed it.

I haven't sung 'On a Saturday Night" in 20 years.

You serious?

I'm dead serious. I never sang that song. As we were telling them, I said, "No," and after we sung the song, everybody in the band was back in the dressing room. You might hear somebody over in the corner. They would say, [sings]. I as just thinking out here, [singing 00:06:10] because it was always one of those things. You see, I did so many different styles on my albums and didn't keep on track to try to make everything sound alike, put out a blues, maybe that's how they miss a lot of my stuff. They might pull one song out and we'd be successful with it. They don't realize all these other things. They say, "Wow, who is this guy? He's uptown, he's downtown, he's out of town. He does everything." I said, because I've always wanted to do that from day one. I've heard everything. I hear everything. I write country and western. I like everything.

Eventually, somebody's going to hear it. You heard "When the Sun Goes Down," and that was my little thing. I said, "Let me get just a little taste of the rock." We did go to a few cities like San Francisco where rock would have been accepted at that early time

.

Tell me about the first time you played 'Big Bird'. How'd the audience react? Because, it's so different to any other song recorded around at the time.

At that time, 'Big Bird' was just before all those real rock songs, but the only real reason it came out the way it did was because of me telling Booker T about Otis and me being at the airport in London. I had this idea for a song, and I was scared to death. I refer to a plane as a bird, get on up, big bird. He heard what I was saying. He made a sound like, [sings]

That's the airplane flying.

[sings] then, it's [sings].

That's what it is.

When the pilot says, "Okay, ladies and gentlemen. We're 33,000 feet up."

I now unbutton your seat belts.

That's where, I tell them to fasten their seatbelt, because there's going to be a little turbulence, always a little turbulence. He did it like that. I don't know if you know who played on 'Big Bird'.

Tell me.

Guitar player, who was the guitar player on 'Big Bird'? Skip Pitts?

Get on up, big bird. Who would you think the guitar player would be?

Well, Cropper would be my first guess, but it's obviously not Cropper, or you wouldn't say it.

Of course.

Allman Brothers? Duane Allman? Isn't it? Who is it?

Booker T.

No way.

Okay. All right, then. On 'Never Found a Girl' listen, Booker T.

On guitar?

On guitar and bass. On guitar, bass, and there was a little French horn in that, played that little thing.

Isn't that amazing?

[sings] Booker. Everybody, when I'm going to shows, I'm doing shows, they'll all say, "Steve," and then I'll correct them and say, "Uh-uh." What? That couldn't have been Booker, because no one has seen him play it, but Booker will play all of that stuff. He always did. I was trying to tell a little story last night, just because of the 50th anniversary. I said, "I don't ever stop and talk. Just go straight on through the songs."

Well, I don't know how many people would know that, because I've never read that anywhere.

No, we haven't given it. If I don't say it, it's gone, because there's no history of it, how you put songs together. There's no history. We don't, for some reason, well, if we do an interview, then I tell you, and now it's documented, then people would know, but yeah. Booker T played guitar on 'Never Found a Girl' and played bass because it was three o'clock in the morning, like I said on the show. 3:00 AM in the morning, we got an idea. We're trying to write a song, anyway. We're there at the studio at STAX. It's me, Al Bell, and Booker T, nobody else, three o'clock in the morning. Wow, we've got this idea. Oh, man, this is bad.

Booker started playing the guitar. No, he's off playing the piano. It was Booker on piano, too. He was on three things. Well, what do we need? We nee a drummer. If we just got a drummer, then we can put two tracks down, drums, keyboard, with me singing a little track on top of it. Booker, what are we going to do? Three o'clock in the morning, he calls Al Jackson, wakes him up. By 4:00, Al Jackson's at the studio. About 4:30, we've got a hit, because they all came in and hear the thing. Yeah, that's nice. He started playing, and Booker played the piano. I sung a little scratch, and Booker went back. He said, "Let me put the bass on." He put the bass on. He said, "Let me put the guitar on." He put the guitar on.

Then, I said, "Let me put my real voice on." I put my real voice on, six o'clock in the morning, that's what we had. We listened to that, said, "Wow. That is really nice." Booker went back, then, and wrote strings for it.

This is 'Never Found a Girl'?

Yeah, and we got Ollie and the Nightingales, one of the background groups to come in and do the song. That was it, 'Never Found a Girl'.

I'll tell you, if you've got to wake Al Jackson up at three in the morning, you'd better make it a hit.

We would do that. That was just the guys. That's the way we put out stuff together. We would do that.

You could call-

Not for one time did we think he would slam the phone down, "It's three o'clock in the"-

Anyone was available at all times, if you thought you really were on to something?

Well, not really, but I'm just saying, if the occasion came up. We knew we had something. All he needed was a drummer to kind of set it. He called him, but we've done that before. A lot of guys will come, like Wayne Jackson has come by the hotel that I would be staying at. Steve and I will be writing all night, and Wayne has probably finished a show here in Memphis, doing a gig. Wayne got a trumpet, and whatever we were writing, we needed where we just had a little tape recorder. He came over to the hotel after the show instead of going home to put his little part down. I did it. We had, the next morning, we go into the studio and come in and then record it. Guys would do that.

Like I say, on 'Big Bird', when I came back and we were talking about 'Big Bird', you know how we wrote 'Big Bird'? It was during the time that Dr. Martin Luther King was assassinated. I was at Booker's house, the first time I'd ever been to Booker's house. We were going to write some songs, and that happened, and the curfew. All of a sudden, the city's full with National Guard, everything. Nobody better be on the streets, so I stayed at his house all night when we wrote 'Big Bird'.

Is that right?

It's always some incident that happens when people are writing songs. It's a great reward, though, when the song happens and the people likes it.

I reckon you didn't record as much material as a lot of other songwriters, right? You didn't do album, upon album, upon album. You did a fair bit of stuff, but some of them recorded much more than you, but never generated the same hits. You had a good batting average, I reckon.

Pretty good.

I reckon you had a really good batting average. Do you know what I mean?

I let the big boys play, and then I just play in the middle. I get what I get. Every once in a while, something comes out. There's a movie, a new movie that's out with Kurt Russell. It just came out.

Oh, I know the one you mean.

Death Proof.

Yeah, the Quentin Tarantino thing.

I got the record in that.

Which one?

It's a song that's never been released. It's a demo. It's not even complete. They got it from Stax, I guess. That's the only one they're talking about in the movie. The movie's just come out. Incidentally, ladies and gentlemen.

What's it called?

Mohair Slim, I have a present for him, the very record I'm talking about.

Oh, wow.

Yeah, I have it in my truck.

So, they're going to release it properly? Have they released it, or are they going to release it?

Yeah, yeah. The album's come out, and the movie's just been released.

Wow.

Yeah, just out the clear blue sky. I don't know. Somebody was telling me, "You got a new record out." I said, "What is it?" I'm thinking it's one of my main records. They say, "It's a song called 'Good Love, Bad Love'". I said, "'Good Love, Bad Love,' I remember that." It's not Steve Cropper playing. It's when I first came down to Memphis from Washington, DC. With Al Bell, who was a disc jockey there. I had a guitar player named Al McCleod. He played guitar and always wrote some songs. We wrote songs up in Washington, so when I came down, that was just one of the many demos that I was putting down on tape. Evidently, he went for that movie, they went through these and it worked within there. I haven't seen the movie yet, because I know it's just been released, but I'll get a copy of that. They sent me an album of the song on it.

Do you know the scene in which they play it?

Pardon?

What scene is it in which they play it, do you know?

I don't know. That's what I would like to hear. When you hear me, it is really unique, though. It's as different as 'Big Bird'.

Are you serious?

It's as different as the last song that we were talking about.

Yeah, 'When the Sun Goes Down'. Totally different, out of the character.

It must be early, if it's before you really hooked up with Stax properly.

Right. That seems to follow my trend. Even before I was with Stax, I still had something that was odd, but other songs that fit right into. I never think about trying to write every song to please you. I write them to please me. If you happen to like them, good.

That's the way to do it.

Well, that's the way I write.

Was that one that you wrote to try and impress the people at Stax?

No.

To maybe bring you on as a-

No.

No? Just one that came out of you?

Just wanted the song. That's what I'm saying. Once you hear, we've got a bunch of Eddie Floyd tunes. Somebody will pick out something. Hey, that's different. They'll pick out something. They must have picked out 'Good Love, Bad Love' for that movie. You'll hear me singing it, my voice is so high on that. It sounds like I'm in a hallway somewhere because that's all it was, was a demo, but it's really groovy, though. Real hard sounding guitar, though. [sings] because he was really supposed to play [sings], but he went [sings]. It was like a crash to play to a part. We were just singing it, [sings]. It's real good. You'll like it.

What year is it?

I can't remember, maybe the first year that I came. 66, really. 1966.

Wow.

They pull out songs like that. I've got another one in that Soul Men movie. That's one we did, 'When the Sun Goes Down', we did another song. 'Oh, How it Rained' listen. It's only one instrument on it. It's me singing. That's as different as anything else, too. If you get that one, you'll say the same thing.

A cappella?

Yeah, that song was like, we were at the studio, Steve and I. It's raining. It's storming. It's like 2:00. We always write all night. It's in the middle of the night. It's storming so bad, "Man, there's some thunder and it's storming outside," so we took a microphone, opened up the back door, and put the microphone over top of the door and recorded the rain falling down, and all of a sudden, boom. The thunder came in, all of that. Well, okay. We've already had the success of 'Knock on Wood' that way, too. When we hear that thunder, he just did that.

Then, we sat down and off the top of the head again, I come up with this song, "Oh, How it Rained'. He had acoustic guitar, the first time Steve Cropper played acoustic guitar. He's got his foot down on the floor. That sort of sounds like a little drum, the way his foot is going. He's hitting the guitar. That's all you're going to hear, just me and him and the rain.

Is that it?

In the song, and I'm singing it down, like [sings]. Nothing up in the high, nothing real high. [sings] Way down, but real funky. As funky as that 'When the Sun Goes Down'.

Is that right?

If you've got the album, 'When the Sun Goes Down', and played that for everybody in Australia.

They would freak out.

They would freak out, because the whole complete thing, there are a lot of songs. There's another song on there called 'Linda Sue Dixon' that's Linda, L, Sue, S, D. LSD. Linda Sue Dixon, say [sings]. Real funky.

"Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds," again. Like "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds." That was it.

Right. I would imagine, probably Stax think those guys have gone crazy. It wasn't any LSD anywhere. It wasn't even about that, but it was about tonight. That as a clever song. You've got to get that album, though.

Yeah, I will.

'When the Sun Goes Down'. You know what? I wish I had brought that album, because you can get that on the Concord as-

I'm going to try to and find it on vinyl.

You know what they have? I think on that one, they have a 'California Girl' album. That was one album. I don't know what's up.

I'm going to have to find that on LP, because I want to play that when I'm DJing at a club. I want to play it when I'm at a club. It'll blow their mind, I'm sure of it.

Yeah, it's a double album, what it is. It was two albums on there, just my style and then the 'Down to Earth' album.

You couldn't have made any singles out of that sort of stuff, because it all went for seven minutes, didn't it? You'd have to have part one and part two.

Yeah, that sounded like it was right out there, because I had already done the 18 minutes. Nobody's playing it, but-

Must be. I think 'When the Sun Goes Down' actually is more than that. I don't think it would even fit on part one and part two.

Well, it could. They could break it to part one and two.

But, even that, I don't think is going to be enough, because what is it, a maximum of three and a half minutes, or something? I think it goes for more than seven minutes. You obviously decided that was not going to be a single, but man, what a tune.

Yeah. They could edit that down, easy. What's happening on the one that you heard on the Stax Profile, you know that they had Dan Aykroyd, the producer of that album, he chose that. He didn't know that song at all, so they'd have to play him my catalog. He chose that song out of that rock album it's stuck into because playing with The Blues Brothers all the time, this guy knows the different things that I'll do. He knows about 'Big Bird.' I do it anyway.

Did Aykroyd choose it? Did Dan Aykroyd choose that tune?

He chose all the songs on the Profile, Stax Profile album.

Wow, okay. I've been getting good laughs out of people since I last saw you, because you told me how on the 'Knock on Wood' album, you can see the stickers still on the axe from where you'd been to the hardware store.

Oh, yeah, if you look at it. All you've got to do is look.

It's really obvious.

Yeah, if you look at it.

Whenever I'm at someone's house, and we run out of conversation, I say, "Have you got Knock on Wood album." They said, "Yeah." I'll show you something really interesting. They laugh. They love it, and also how you told how Stax sent you down there with a photographer because they thought it was 'Chop on Wood'.

That's why I had the axe. Now, we have another album out, the 50th anniversary of Stax. You haven't gotten that one yet.

You should talk about that, that'd be nice.

Oh, yeah. Definitely. I'll talk about the 50th anniversary. That album has one picture in the booklet that I hadn't ... I saw, and I could remember that. It's the same picture. I'm out there trying to figure out this ax thing, anyway, when I do this. Okay, then. You ready? In this new album that's out, they had other pictures of that session that I did, Stax did, and they gave them to put in this booklet. I'm standing up there with the axe.

On your shoulders?

On the shoulders. The axe still follows me. I don't know, I haven't looked close to see if the label is that way. I believe it was on both sides, but it was turned around a different way.

That's funny.

Yeah, it is. Everything seemed to follow it. Somebody probably said, "Okay, here's a song. Here's a picture of him. Let's get it with the axe." Maybe they can't relate it to 'Knock on Wood'. The new company probably don't even know that was the 'Knock on Wood'.

That's very funny. Where was that taken, that photo?

Straight down Poplar at Memphis State, the college, university, out in the park, under a tree. That's why I was saying, "Oh, yeah?" I'm dressed up. I'm down, outside of college. We're doing this picture outside, thinking we're going to the studio and do a nice photo for the album, like you do. But, no, we're doing something outside. Okay, I'm overdressed, 12 o'clock in the day, hot, Memphis. When I get there, he hands me this ax.

You're in a mohair suit or something?

Now, let me say, I don't know exactly where you would have been yesterday, but the lady who did all of that was standing right down in front.

Deanie Parker? You pointed to her. I couldn't see her, though.

She was just standing there in the corner.

She had a nice record, 'My Imaginary Guy' listen, which I loved. It was never a hit, but it's a beautiful song. Did you ever go out to Muscle Shoals?

Yeah. Stax recorded stuff at Muscle Shoals that I was there. The Staples Singers, 'I'll Take You There', at Muscle Shoals and Stax. It is Stax, as far as the artist, but Al Bell went to Muscle Shoals, and did that with the guys at Muscle Shoals. Then, we started doing stuff down there. I had "Something to Write Home About," another song off of my album. I did go down there and record a couple songs with Barry and all the boys, David and all of them at the studio. I still see a couple of them. Little David played the bass.

David Hood?

Yeah. The Alabama Music Hall of Fame is there. One of the guys formed that hall of fame, and whenever we have an award show or something, I see a couple of the guys from the original band at Muscle Shoals.

I was up there about 10 days ago.

Okay, you saw David Johnson?

No, I met Rick Hall's wife. She told us all about the original studios. It's all pretty much the same as it was.

Yeah, might as well keep it.

Same equipment, the same piano that Spooner Oldham used to play on live.

Nobody would care if it was the new stuff. It probably may not be so accurate, but ...

They're just doing country now. Rick's wife said he'd love to do R&B, but there's no market for it.

Yeah, that's what he said, that's what she said.

She said it's what he loves to do. She said it's what he loves, and the country is just for money.

Well, see, he lost the fire. If I thought there wasn't no market, I guess I wouldn't be singing.

But for new R&B, that's what he thinks. I don't know.

I know, but that's what I'm trying to-

You just give up?

What'd I say? What'd I just say? Kurt Russell. That's what's wrong to me. It's a demo, 40 years ago. The rock, so slow as you can't tell. This guy said, "Wow, that's a song." That way, it may not be that you're on every station, but all that they're playing stuff. I've got more records now than I ever had out. I've got another record. I've got a scoop, but I can't give you that one. I'm going to let you hear it, though, before you go.

Really? Okay.

I'll let you hear it, because I saw your card and see all the styles of music you play. I say, okay. Do you know this artist from LA named Poncho Sanchez?

You mentioned that yesterday. I thought you were joking.

No, you've got to hear that. Oh, no, no. It's good. It's real good. I'm playing it-

I thought you saw some-

No.

Mexican people, and were joking with them.

No, no.

That's funny.

I was letting Deanie know that because Deanie, she knows about, she's dealing with Concord right now, but she might not know that Booker T, Steve, and I, we flew out to LA, and we recorded 'Knock on Wood' and 'Raise your Hand' listen with Poncho. Poncho's a jazz percussionist. He's been in the Latino thing for 24, 25 years with that company, actually, and doing really, very well. I was doing tours overseas. A couple times, I've seen them on the show. Didn't know him.

All of a sudden, last year, I got this call. You should come and sing on this thing. When I meet Poncho, he was telling me when he was in school, that was the first songs he sung, was "Raise your Hand," man. I've been singing "Raise your hand" my whole life, but I never got a chance to do it nowhere. He wanted to show everybody that he know the soul music. You listen to that, when you hear it. They don't hear Poncho sing. He gets other Latino guys to do some. He might be in some of that, but I don't think in this album, I believe he's just doing those three. He's doing 'Shotgun', Junior Walker with Maceo Parker. Bad!

Doing the sax? Yeah?

Oh, man. I'll play it for you, just before you leave.

I'd love to hear it. Then, he's doing "Raise your Hand"?

The name of the album is 'Raise your Hand', out of the jail thing, but then he's showing them he can do rock, so in the song, I guess I should just let you hear it, but it's still all right. You hear it and know what's happening by the end of it. You've got to hear it still. He gets down at the end like we used to do back in the day in the soul thing, on a record like James Brown. He says, "Night Train." [sings] "New York." You know, Philadelphia [sings]. Just saying these things so people say, "Yeah! He mentioned our city!"

Poncho's thing, he's telling everybody, "raise your hand, everybody, raise your hand. Steve Cropper, I want you to raise your hand. Booker T, raise your hand. Eddie Floyd, I know you know how to raise your hand. I want everybody in New York City to raise your hand." He starts saying, you can tell he's thinking as he's doing it. He said, "LA, everybody in LA." It must be something that plays. He said, "In my hometown in Texas," I say, "Right, don't forget that." That means he heard all the stuff back in the day, or he never would have done it that way. He did it just exactly like the old style.

That was the thing that 'Dancing in the Street', and that sort of thing was that if you mention enough towns, hopefully, that would push it along. You mention some cities, and people get excited. They mention Chicago.

Yeah, that was a thing like everything else. You know what I'm saying? When you did hear that.

We were just going to mess with your mind yesterday and yell out for some Falcons tunes.

Okay. I've got another session that's going to be out in August where I just did [sings] I just recorded that on an album that [sings] from a young man, Mike. I'm looking at Mike now, this young guy who came to me with another song that he said, "This is one of the first songs you ever wrote." I'm looking at him, saying, "What're you talking about?" I would like to record that on you. I said, "What's the song?" He said, "It's a tune called 'Since You Been Gone.' listen" All the way back to 1956. I said, "Wow, the way my songs go, I don't know if people be knowing all these things." Then there'll always be somebody to pop up out of the woodwork and tell me that. I'm still looking at it, and I'm saying, [inaudible]

He said, "I'll send you the record." They live in Boston. He said, "I'll put a track together, see if you like it." I said, "Hey, if you could take me all the way back to my beginning, when it's close to my ending, okay." I said, "Let me hear." When they sent it to me, I flew up, and I put the five tracks down. He had to go all the way back to the beginning. "'You're So Fine' listen," he was asking me, "I'd like to do 'You're So Fine' again." That's how we ended up doing 'You're So Fine', but the song called 'Since You Been Gone', he said, "The reason I like this song," he said, "I heard 'Stand By Me' by Ben E. King" and I know the time that he put that out. He said, "You wrote this song in the 50s?"

Four are five years before.

Before having that. I'm saying, "I guess a lot of songs were before their time." That's how they say that 'Big Bird' and all these others, before rock time, and all the above.

"When the Sun Goes Down."

I'll take that recognition. It was a little different approach than what the other guys do.

You eat, but I don't want yours to get cold. Man, I've got to hear that record. I actually don't know that one. That's pre-Falcons?

What it is, is he got it, and the song ... We were in a rehearsal, every artist that you can name. The Falcons, we would be in one. We'd rent a little room, and they've got a piano in each one of them rooms. Every group would go there and rehearse songs in the rehearsal hall. You didn't need a mic or anything, because the room would echo. It'd be with a echo. Willie Schofield, bass player, he's playing piano, and Lance Finney, the guitar player, evidently maybe he's not there, because he would have been playing on that, but he's not playing on it. It's just the piano. He's singing with The Falcons in the background.

I said, "Wow, yeah, okay." He put the song together, and then, if you heard my voice on the new one, nothing has changed, just more mature when I did it the second time. I love it, though. Boy, I said, "That's a hit, but it's so far back, lyric-wise," and all of that, but so is that song in that movie. People evidently don't care about this astrology thing or how old, or what a man would say to a woman in this day and time, opposed to what he said way back.

As long as you don't say, these days you can't say, "I'm gay," whereas before, you could say, "I'm gay." It meant you were happy, like Chuck Jackson.

Right.

'Any Other Way' listen, that William Bell also do. [singing 00:38:58] When William Bell did it that way, Chuck Jackson changed it a year later, but he knew what they meant. [inaudible 00:39:07].

He's been just changing up. I know them both. They're buddies, still, even right now.

But yeah-

There was something that I did on stage yesterday, just talking to somebody, just before that show, about 'Big Bird' and the lyric. They said, "What's the fascination? Everybody like the 'Big Bird'." Then I told them, I said, "Yeah, but ... " I explained what I'm talking about. Some people know big bird is a plane. Maybe they're not really listening to it, only just the chorus. Get on up, big bird, then listening to the verses, because I'm talking about ... I'm not saying in the song that I'm sitting [inaudible] adjusting yourself. Get on up, big bird. That's not what I said. My mind went to a train station. That's what I said on the record. [sings] I meant to say airport.

Ah, interesting. Yeah, right. You were so into it in the moment that you said station instead of airport.

Train station instead of airport. Didn't know it was close, did you?

I never thought about that, that's funny.

You will from now. Yesterday, on the stage, I said it.

Airport or station?

Airport.

You got it right, finally.

No, I only just did that. I'm going back to station. I only just did it. [inaudible] [sings] then, my mind went back. Yeah, that sounded pretty good. [sings] Thank you.

That Betty Harris, you're going to see her in Porretta. She's at the Porretta Soul Festival. She's on that, and you'll be there with Sir Mack Rice, speaking of Falcons.

Actually, at the Porretta thing?

Yeah, isn't Mack Rice on that show?

Mack might be on that show, but something's wrong with that show, because I just got through talking, after you called me last night, excuse me, I had somebody there. We were talking about that very show. He said, "You're going to be on that, aren't you?" I said, "Somebody better call me."

What? What do you mean?

What I'm saying, I'm seeing it on the website. Stax Anniversary show. We've done played for the guy many times. He's been over every time when we do the Stax reunion. He'll probably be here for June, when we do the thing.

Just to watch it, because he likes it.

Yeah, and he comes over. I've been there with The Blues Brothers on that same show. He said, "I will host it this year, but we're not going there." Sir Mack Rice, he might just be getting some of the other artists from Stax, but he got my name on there.

Are you going?

No. I'll be away, doing a tour.

Oh, shit.

It's nothing to do with-

Oh, god.

We wanted to do of course England, because what? When we left here, that's the way all [inaudible] We're not doing England either. We're doing three shows for the 50th Anniversary.

Oh, so it's traveling. I thought that was just here.

Huh?

I thought that was just here.

That it's just here? No, we've already done one. We did-

Oh, I didn't even know.

We did South by Southwest.

Oh, okay. So this is-

Austin.

Yeah, this is with The Temprees?

Right, this one would be in June.

Yeah, with Booker T.

Then, the third one will be LA in August.

You're not going to play the-

And July.

What's it called, The 30-20 Ballroom?

Huh?

What was that ballroom that they recorded Stax Live at in LA? The 20 30 Ballroom, or whatever it's called. You must have heard that. Is that where it was?

That's not where it'd be, I think.

It's probably ripped down by now.

Yeah, I'm sure [inaudible] we're playing.

Okay, let me know.

And Concord, because of-

The release.

The records and all that stuff, celebrating it, and because everybody was booked to go on other shows. There wasn't anybody who actually took that over to really coordinate that. They could have did a whole major tour on that. We're doing a major-

It makes sense to do it. If you've got all this publicity behind the records, why not put them together?

They're putting those three together, two for the-

That's bullshit, though, isn't it? That's terrible.

But, that's the way it always goes, brother.

I mean, all these bands, they can organize worldwide tours for years on end, dozens and dozens of gigs a year.

You've seen some advertisement on it?

No, I only know because Betty told. [inaudible] Yeah, I know Eddie, and I'm going to see him in Porretta.

Me too.

She's been talking about Sir Mack Rice, but she only mentioned Eddie, she only mentioned you just now, whereas before she was talking about with Sir Mack Rice. It surprises me. Maybe, I don't know.

If you punch in to that Porretta website, then you'll see they've got the 50th anniversary. I think they only mention me, and I think they mention William Bell, Booker T and the MGs. Carla Thomas, even, and Carla ain't singing nowhere. It's Mable John and a lot of the other ladies that had a couple records on Stax is on there.

Yeah, I know Mable John.

She's on it, yeah. Carla is out of it. She can't sing, ain't going to be able to perform. [inaudible]

Has Mack Rice been performing for the last 20 years?

He's a real performer. He's probably a writer, but he just performed, though. I was just off here in Memphis last month. He played at Stax. They have a Monday night little show, about 200 people. I was there, actually it was two months, now. It was all the press come out from Australia, too, was there for the announcement of the 50th anniversary. People from England and Norway, all over, France, were there, and later that night Mack sung. That was the first time I've seen Mack [inaudible]. Because people really love him as well as the song, so he do go out, unless somebody get him to go, but we don't cross each other and know it.

I did interview him some years ago. He's a lovely guy, really nice bloke.

He's on that song that's getting ready to come out.

What? Which one?

'Since You Been Gone', the one I told you The Falcons wrote.

Oh, yeah? He's on that? On the original one?

Well, the way Mack Rice came into be is me being in Detroit, back during that time in the interchange, and guys in The Falcons trying to get our group. Our group, we finally met Mack Rice, and he was in another group. He switched and came to The Falcons. We've been [inaudible] as The Falcons. Then I left, and I recorded Knock on Wood in Memphis and came back to Detroit with a number one record. All The Falcons came to the show. Eddie's got a hit. Yeah, they come to see me. Then, I tell Mack, I said, "Man, the studio in Memphis, Stax, is really happening. You ought to come and go with me." The next morning, I said, "I'll get you a ticket." The next morning, we flew back to Memphis. That's how he got in Memphis.

Mack Rice has got his bags packed.

He got there as a writer, same way I did. I took him with me. Then, Mack stayed there the same, went through the same things. He wrote all them songs, wrote 'Mustang Sally', 'Cheaper to Keep Her', wrote all that stuff. [inaudible]

'Mini-Skirt Minnie' listen himself?

Huh?

'Mini-Skirt Minnie'?

Yeah, well now, when we did 'Mini-Skirt Minnie', now, that's with my uncle.

Robert West?

Yeah. When both he and I went on our own, he did that, and I did a song called 'I'll Be Home' listen. We used to do a little, almost like a Sam and Dave thing. We would be on the same show, but he'd be doing his song. I'd do mine. We might sing a Falcons song, go all down the east coast. We only did it for that year, though. He did that, then he wrote all these songs here in Memphis and he lived here 20 years.

Mack Rice runs a road fixing company in Detroit.

Yeah, he formed that six months after he left from here.

Probably a pretty good business, I would think.

I remember the day he packed up all his clothes, put it in his car, and said, "I'm going on back home, finally." Then, I came into Detroit. Next thing I know, I was at his company. They had about 15 big trucks and maybe about 30 employees. They were all coming in. Some of the guys paying him off, for working. All right, Sir Mack Rice, that's the man, you're into the asphalt, huh? He said, "Yeah, I do a little small driveways, and did that, and now you have a major, big business."

It's worth a lot of money?

Yeah, it's a big company. [inaudible]

Yeah, I was up in Detroit.

Yeah? Okay. You've been over here long?

Four weeks. I leave tomorrow.

Wow.

Four weeks. Yeah, it's all my holidays for the year. I have to work for another 11 months straight.

Oh, no.

That's all right. Yeah, I love Detroit, and I'm now a record collector. I collect 45s and I've never seen the 45s lik they've got up in Detroit.

You collect 45s?

Yeah, and they've got so many records up there. The way someone put it to me, is they said that in the soul era, the rhythm and blues era, Detroit was a rich town. All the car industry up there.

I lived there right at that time.

You know what I'm talking about?

I know the Motown story as much as I know the other story, because my uncle and Berry Gordy were partners before he started Motown. My uncle had The Falcons. He had Betty Lavette. He had Marv Johnson. And, he had The Supremes. They were The Primettes. I'm just saying, then Barry had the little studio there on-

Grand.

Uh huh, but, before he had the studio, just a block over is Euclid Avenue. A little apartment there is where all The Temptations, everybody came to audition. You can see it in [inaudible] around the corner and over to the studios. I feel like I was a part of that, but my uncle had us on the record. Then, later I met Al Bell, went to Memphis instead.

What they reckon is it was such a boom time, then suddenly jobs are-

Oh, it was good times.

In Ford, and everything, but since then, it's gone south. At the time, you had a wealthy black middle class who could afford to just buy records. They could buy all these records, look after them, but then when they left, and when things broke down, well they'd sell them up or whatever. There's all these records in Detroit that are just lying around, whereas they're not [inaudible 00:51:55]

On unreleased stuff, I've been on wasn't-hits with clever songs, all hits.

No, not just hits. For instance, my favorite record that I've picked up this trip is a Sir Mack Rice record on Lu Pine, "Baby, I'm Coming Home." [singing 00:52:17]

That's the same time I recorded 'I'll Be Home' in my uncle's studio, he recorded that one, and we went down the east coast. That was another one he had. I had 'I'll Be Home'. I couldn't remember the other record that I had. I had a couple records, he had a couple records. You just call off all of that.

Was that a hit?

No, but it was a hit in the region, a hit in certain areas. They would play [inaudible]

See, when I'm DJing out, I'll put that on. They love it. They don't want to hear all the hits. They want to hear a mix. They want to hear stuff they know, but then they want to hear new stuff, cool, obscure stuff. There's a lot. I don't know whether you have this here in night clubs here, but over there, if they're hearing something obscure that someone else doesn't know, that's cool. Then, they feel like ... I don't know how to explain, like they're an elite or something. They know something other people don't know. They don't want to just hear 'Hold on, I'm Coming'.

I dig it.

But, they want to hear stuff like Sir Mack Rice or you or Singin' Sammy Ward or whatever it might be, some obscure guy.

Did you see The Ohio Players last night?

No, I didn't catch them. I missed it.

I didn't either. [inaudible] again.

Robert Ward.

Right, and I guess the bass player is still with them.

Can you talk about that, and mention their names?

Well, only one that I can remember as far as The Ohio Untouchables is Robert Ward, because it was Robert Ward and The Ohio Untouchables. I should remember the bass player's name. It's slipping me, but I would have still saw him last night, and then he knows me. We went on to talk, but those are the only two that I remember in that band. Still, we went to Dayton, Ohio and did a little gig in the club, The Falcons. All we got is a guitar player. Fortunately, the band's going to be there. We met them, Robert Ward and The Ohio Untouchables. [inaudible] I met Wilson Pickett had been into Dayton gospel. Robert went gospel. That's how that hookup was.

Oh, okay.

So, we're in this club, singing. Robert Ward, at the end of the show, did a whole weekend. At the end, every night of the show, it's time to go. [sings] The girls start getting into a thing. We're in the dressing room, it's just The Falcons. We hear him say, "It's time to go, ladies and gentlemen. I don't know where you've got to go, but you've got to get out of here." Then, they say, [singing]. I heard that in a big harmony thing. Goodnight, ladies and gentlemen. [singing] gets that down, rote. [singing] behind that.

They went over to King Records, right over into Cincinnati. My uncle comes from Detroit. Cincinnati, we get the Ohio Untouchables. We went to the studio in Cincinnati and record 'I 'Found a Love' listen. It really was, ladies and gentlemen, it really was an Ohio Untouchables record. I think he was clever enough to say, "Write a song to it," and we got them to go into the studio and play it for us. Then, it was a hit. I've never seen them since, but I have seen Robert Ward through the years, but then when they become The Ohio Players, I said, "Hey, that's a band I started, really" Really? Back when they stated doing their stuff.

So they've still got the original bass player from The Ohio Untouchables?

I'm sure, because that would probably be the only one. Next month, at the Orpheum Theater, I'm flying her in from Las Vegas and honor her on the show. That's still moving.

That's cool.

You're talking about the old time, and this all went full circle. That's what I'm getting ready to do for my aunt, all about 'I Found a Love', 'You're So Fine', thank you for supporting me in my whole career, the whole bit. I'm saluting her and my uncle.

Mention his name. You always say "my uncle," mention his name, can you say his name?

Robert West and Catherine West. I've got to mention her. If you do check The Robert West Story, they'll mention how Aunt Catherine would pack up all the records and they would mail them out to the different radio stations in that day, in that time. Then, she hasn't been active. She never was really active in the music scene, but she was just helping her husband do some music back during that time. But, it's really nice to see that on some of the websites, that they do mention her.

That is cool.

She's 92. We're celebrating. I'm bringing her into Memphis for the Stax 50th anniversary. We will leave from here. We'll go to the museum the next day and see all of the records that I did through the years. Then, the following day, we're going to go to Muscle Shoals, to the Alabama Music Hall of Fame, where the Alabama Music Hall of Fame is honoring her also. She doesn't know any of this. When we get there, I'm going to show her all of my achievements in the Alabama Music Hall of Fame and thank her. I have a star with my name engraved in the floor, like Temptations and all, in the hall of fame. They also have a brick honor. They have all the artists outside of it built into the studio honoring Wilson Pickett. I've just had them to do ... Well, my brick is Aunt Catherine, Uncle West. Their names is in the hall of fame. I made sure, put them in the Alabama Hall of Fame.

Where were you born?

Montgomery, Alabama. That's where we're going. We're going to do this show, then go to Alabama Hall of Fame. Then, we're going home the next day to home and do her official birthday and it's a home reunion.

Isn't that beautiful?

Yeah, and after that, I'm off. July first, I leave with The Blues Brothers for 32 shows and let off with that one for 32 shows with Bill Wyman and back for four shows with The Blues Brothers, and back to about six shows with Bill Wyman again, all the way up to October.

Busy man, busy man.

Hey, blessed man.

It must be hard to just keep track of everything when you're always working out of a suitcase and that sort of stuff.

Shit, I love it.

You like it?

I get the best of both worlds. I'm always working out of a suitcase, but I'm always at home, too, because, hey, if I've got two days off, I could be in Istanbul, I go home. I'll see home, and then I'm in the suitcase again. As long as I see home, touch home. Oh, back to what I do, which is what I'm doing now. The only time I actually really get to drive is right now. This is the only place I will drive, from Montgomery to-

You still live in Montgomery?

About 300 miles, about four hours.

I was in Gadsden the other day.

Okay, you were in Birmingham, if you had went from Birmingham down to Montgomery, it's 70 miles. Gadsden is to the left. That's my family's home.

Yeah, we drove through. We flew into Nashville then drove down to Muscle Shoals, had a look around at the studios, then dropped into Gadsden on the way to Atlanta, on the way to Betty Harris's house, dropped in on a guy called Jerry "Boogie" McCain. He's an Alabama blues man. He's about 80 something years old, an old school blues man, tough guy.

I bet.

He's an ex bounty hunter. I should show you something. You won't believe this. This is a picture of Jerry "Boogie" McCain at home, okay?

Whoa. Okay.

He's bad.

I see.

He's 80 something years old.

Hey, got a few still hanging in. I hope I'll be one of them.

You were in great form yesterday.

Huh?

You were in great form yesterday.

Oh, hey. It was good.

It would have been brutal up there in that weather, and you're in the suit. How did you do that?

I would never wear anything else. If I came here with a t-shirt on, I'd be you. I come here with a suit, I'm me.

I love that. That's a good attitude.

I would never do that. I couldn't do, I was actually in the hotel looking at a pair of pants and a shirt. I'm saying, "You know it's going to be hot. You don't care about it being hot." I said, "No, everybody's going to be ... " I always do that to myself. I just didn't wear no tie. That'd be unusual for me to wear one or a little sweater. I said, "Look at it this way, there's a little sweater." No, I'm going to have the tie. Had it been eight o'clock ...

You would have had a tie as well.

Yeah, I would have had all that stuff on me. I'm old school. That's what that was. I see it now. I'm not saying that they're not entertainers, but that was our style.

You know what? I 100% agree with you. We had a young guitarist staying with us in New Orleans who's from back home. Me and my friend who are old school fools, we got him aside. We said, "We love your act. We reckon you're a great guitarist. All this is true, but you've got to have a style, man. You're getting up on stage. You're wearing jeans and sneakers. That's not creating an impression. That's not a performance. That's not showmanship." We said, "We don't care what the style is. You maybe wear a big cowboy hat and nice duds, or wear a suit and-"

Something!

"Slick your hair back, but you've got to freaking do something, man. You've got to do it quick." He thought we were joking until we kept on telling him. You have a look at all the big artists there's ever been, how many of them dress like slobs? No one. Got to look cool. Got to look like something.

Makes sense. People do it their way.

You can even tell with bands. I have this rule. If you look at a band when they're getting ready, most of the time, you can tell that they're going to be good or bad by what they wear, the way they carry themselves. Bobby "Blue" Bland last night, his band, let's do it both ways. Koko Taylor, night before last, Koko Taylor and the blues thing. Band get out, one's wearing a blue denim shirt. One's wearing a green thing, all these sneakers. Only the lead guy had a cool red thing on. Worst band I've ever seen. Worst bad I've ever seen. Bobby "Blue" Bland, they're getting ready for their show last night when I go in the tent. Everyone's in white shirt, a polo shirt, but with a collar.

That's cool.

Black pants.

He knows.

Black shoes.

He's not going to let them on stage with him unless they look like something. That'd be James Brown. That'd be him. That would've been Joe Tex in his time. That's just their style, and I appreciate that. I know those guys are going to be jazzed, though. One way or another, you're not coming on-

It's just that they hit it. Yeah, good.

They playing the thing. I'm glad to see Bobby was out there last night. I did a show with him about three years ago here, at one of the Blues Ball, and a couple of other times, I was always there at the same show that he was at. Both times, he was sick.

Oh, really?

Yeah. Both times he didn't play. I was concerned about him. They say he goes off and on. Did he do good last night?

He was really good.

That's what I'm saying.

It's the third time I've seen him.

That's what I'm saying, he's been out of it a little bit, then I guess he does and does a gig.

Is that what he does, he takes a rest from it, takes a break?

I guess so. I thought, hey, I'm telling you, this has been six, seven years ago, I was seeing him. He might have been on the bus, and he was just laying there in his bed. The band was out playing all his songs, just instrumental, nobody actually even singing them. They had nobody to sing but Bobby nowhere. The guy said, "Well, Bobby's sick. You can't do the show tonight." Then, went to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. They were inducting him. I saw him at the hotel that night. There were a thousand cameras doing stuff. I'm going to wait until he comes out. As soon as he came out and he sat down, he didn't feel well. I felt like maybe he was not feeling well.

I think he was the best of the three gigs I've seen him do.

That's great. That means he's feeling better. That's good, but when you told me he was doing this show, I hadn't seen the whole schedule. I was saying this last night, "All right, Bobby's out there, getting ready to go on stage now, at 11 o'clock." They said, "Yeah, Bobby's on the show." I said, "Wow, I didn't know that." I'm getting too old now. I can't go back to see him.

I should have rung you earlier. I thought you might have dug that.

I didn't know.

You didn't know it was on?

If I did, if I had ...

The good thing, I mean-

That's great. That's good to know, though. Hey, we rock 'til we drop, simple as that. Wouldn't you know, you hate to see one down.

With something like Bobby "Blue" Bland, he would have enough money saved and own enough houses. He doesn't need to do it, does he?

No, but it's not really about that now. That's a blessing.

That's the one thing I don't know. Explain it to me.

It's a blessing that he doesn't need to do it, but that's his gift. Once you stop doing your gift, you're dead. Nobody wants to die, so we rock 'til we drop, simple as that.

I see.

Yeah, we'll let those other guys retire. No, no. Hey, just think about when you want to retire, though. There's still a fan out there that'll come there. Hell, I might have wanted to retire just before I did the show yesterday. I come on stage, and I see some people. I threw "On a Saturday Night" on them, and I see two over there singing it down, must know the song. So, suppose I retire. I'm just out of it. I still know I've got fans out there.

When you played yesterday, there was a girl, she can't have been more than 17 or 18. When you started with "Knock on Wood," she was going crazy, jumping up and down. Young, I mean really young. 12, 13 years younger than me.

12, 13. That's what I'm saying. It's amazing anyway, but hey, let's keep doing it. What else do I need to tell you? STAX, well it's about Stax. They're getting ready to release the film, 1967, the first year we did over in Europe.

They filmed it? Did they?

I've got it. I've got it at home.

Oh, this is them that did the Live in Paris and the Live in London thing.

Yeah, but that's not it. Everybody's thinking that's it, and I thought it was it. I kept looking at the place, but I couldn't really tell by the place. What's happening is that we went through England. We did that one first. I know they filmed something. I know they filmed, because we did all kind of publicity. We went on to Paris. We know we recorded in England, but I know they filmed something in England. We went to Paris the same way. They filmed you a little bit and recorded, so we do have the album Live in Paris.

It's new stuff?

No, no. It's just the two different songs.

Is the footage taken at the same time as the album was recorded?

The footage is taken the same time. We went over there for the first time.

Is it exactly the same gigs as went into the albums, the filming? Is it of exactly the same gigs?

What's happening is we did those two places. That's the only places we relate to, because the album back is London and Paris. But, we went to Norway, and we went to Scandinavia, too. We went to Oslo, Norway. That's where this film is coming from. These people here are not even advanced in the head as far as the music like the British are. We're all the way out of that into a place we never heard of. We heard of it, but all of a sudden we're in Norway. Where's that? Way up Eskimo, or whatever. We did the show at the theater there, making sure that they had the TV station, local, came in to film this R&B show. They're just going to film the first song, I guess. Somebody left the camera on for 48 minutes. It's got me singing not any of my hits, really. I'm singing "If I Had a Hammer" or something. One of the songs I'm singing. Sam and Dave are singing two songs. Otis was singing three songs. Booker T and the MGs played. Arthur Conley's playing his record.

'Sweet Soul Music'.

'Sweet Soul Music', and Carla hasn't come yet. Carla was on the other show, but Carla didn't make that show. It's 49 minutes, I think it is, or something. There's this company in San Francisco called Reel To Reel. They're 54 years in the business. They collect. The guy said, you name it, I'll send it to you. Oh yeah, yeah. He said, "We've got this footage of you guys overseas." I said, "You know, I've been seeing it all my life over there," saying, man I need to get a tape of that, but they're not showing the whole thing. They might show [inaudible] and show one of the others. It's in black and white. I said, "I need to get that." He said, I'll send it to you. He sent it to me.

That was four years ago, when we did the groundbreaking for Stax. Then, he said, if ever we decide to try to do something with that, it's just a little short, but it's a history thing. If we ever decide to do something with that, would you be interested? I said, "Of course." They're just now getting ready. I just signed a contract just before I left and emailed it back to him before. They're getting ready to come out with that in August.

Is that anything to do with the Concord thing, as well?

No, that's going to be San Francisco. Their thing is going to be documented. Like the guy say, he'll probably just put a story with it. That's what I'm saying. Put a story with it, where we went.

Like a documentary kind of thing.

Yeah, when we went, but they did one other one called 'Soul to Soul'. Wilson Pickett, and-

Is that him in Germany?

No, that was Africa.

Oh, okay.

You know when he went to Kenya and did that thing?

But, there's earlier footage of him, a whole thing on him in Germany. They filmed him from the time he arrived at the airport to the time he left.

No, this is the one that had Roberta Flack and, oh shit, who else did they have on that? Did they have Tina on that? Tina Turner and them? Yeah-

Lloyd Price, I think put it together. BB King was on it, I think.

That show, the Reel to Real people put that out.

I've got to get that on DVD.

Oh, it's coming out on DVD. This one is coming out on DVD.

Good sound?

Oh, yeah. It's perfect.

Really?

Everybody's hitting on that show, brother. That was our first time hitting Europe, just like Beatles hitting here. In it, you will see. We see it when they first start, and they always flashing through the people. You'll see maybe one guy out there. Somebody, I forgot who, was the first one singing. By the middle, there's about 30. Then, about halfway through that song, there was about 200, and by the end of the song, the whole building is going. Then, it's building more and more. Then, we're coming back to back on them. [sings]

Then, all of a sudden, they've got people laying on the floor. The police is there, all of a sudden. Now it's going crazy. They're pushing folks back. I'm out, and when I saw them doing that, I came off the stage and went out in the audience. I had them going. Otis stayed on stage, and Sam and Dave. Everybody else stayed on stage, and I jumped out in there where they were.

You jumped out there?

Oh, yeah, just jumped right on out there, because police was trying to push folks back, and they were like, "Who is this guy? What's happening?" The whole bit.

Eric when did you start out to be a musician?

Oh me? I started playing for Studio One In ’69, ‘68, yeah. 1968 yeah. I make tunes like 'Hello Caroll' listen [The Gladiators], ‘Fever And Fresh Cola’, ‘Rent And Taxis Get Higher’. I play for Robbie Lynn and Jackie Mittoo. Jackie died. And ‘Fat Girl’, ’'Fattie' listen and ‘Ram Jam’. Those special.

Did you play on 'Ram Jam' listen?

Yes, lead: pom pom pom pom chank chank. And ‘Hello Caroll’, bah doobie doobie doobie doobie doobie hello carol! yes dread.

So did you play on most of Jackie’s records on studio one?

Yes. ‘Who Done It’. ’'Who Done It’' listen. Boop boop boop b-da boop boop boop boop boop ba-ding!. That’s me there. On the bassline. Picked the guitar with the bassline. It sound special. Yes it give you a glass sound. Like glass.

Well you mention the guitar, you play a different sort of guitar to most people.

Yes. You see I play rhythm and lead. I pick with the bassline and a rhythm. Like ‘Rent And Taxis Get Higher’ (sounds out verse of ‘Rent And Taxis Get Higher’). The rhythm style. And then I play for Studio One those style.

But it’s a different sort of guitar. It not a normal six or eight-string?

Oh the twelve string. I play twelve string too. With Robbie Lynn and Jackie and Heptones, Leroy Sibbles.

Sometimes you use a twelve-string?

Special times. Yeah special times play that twelve-string thing.

What sort of songs did you thing that you needed the twelve-string for?

Oh its more chant music. Chant. I wouldn’t say classic because Ernest Ranglin and them man play classic. I don’t go and study those.

What sort of a man was Jackie Mittoo?

Oh he is very ingenious. I mean he’s really good. He’s best at keyboards.

He was still probably pretty young when you were recording for Coxsone?

Yes. You see jackie was the expert. He tell you what to play, you see. He could work out a bass line in five minute and give the rhythm too same time.

Even though he was a young man he ran the sessions?

Yeah ‘Who Done It’ (sounds out a verse of ‘Who Done It’). ‘Ram Jam’, 'Fat Girl’' listen, Heptones, Sibbles.

Who else was in the backing band for Jackie at Coxsone?

Yes. And you got the drummer for the Rockers, Horsemouth. Yes. Yes. And you got the bass, Boris Gardiner used to fill in for Shep Heptone. Coz Heptone [Leroy Sibbles] was the best. Next to Boris y’know? Yes dread.

What about the horns?

Oh, you had man like Deadly Headley [Bennett] and Trammy [AKA Vin Gordon] and Vin Gordon, same boy. And you got man like yeah. Trumpet-man there Johnny Moore used to say he wouldn’t leave (laughs).

Do many still play or are they retired?

Yeah they play. They get paid too. Me don’t get paid.

You said you started recording for Coxsone in about 68, 69. Was that your first recording session?

Yes. I used to play in the bands. The Mighty Vikings and The Virtues. I used to play in them two bands. And Byron Lee same. There was a big thing going on there with them. And then you had man start firing shots on the dancehall. So the bands just fell off and so likewise me. I had to move in the studio.

It’s a bit safer in the studio than in the dancehall?

Yes you know? I don’t want to do it. I might pick up and go on tour now but I don’t go to dancehall.

So you were a member of the Mighty Vikings?

Yes I was a member there. I play guitar in The Vikings with Horsemouth [Wallace], drummer. Yes

Who else was in that band?

Oh that Desmond Miles. You have Mikey. Mikey Anderson on keyboard. And the singer. The chinese fellow there. Chung [Mikey Chung]. No. One of them. Two brothers of them [Sonny Wong and Victor Wong]. They sing in the Mighty Vikings. They run things with the band’s manager. Desmond Miles the band leader. Yes dread.

As a member of The Mighty Vikings, what vocalists did you support?

They play everything. They play calypso. Their special was 'There’s A Reward For Me' listen, ‘There’s Going To Be A Wedding’.

So what year was it that you joined your first band?

Yeah ‘69, ‘68, ‘67, ‘68. The Virtues and The Vikings. Byron Lee. Competition. Kes Chin.

So you just missed out on the ska era?

Yes. Right. I come in the reggae and the rock steady. Rockers with Horsemouth. Yes

When you were coming up. How did you get the sound?

Well Mr Dodd you see, he have this little machine and it go there (sounds out strumming guitar sound). Yes. Mr Dodd. Coxsone. Studio One. He has a little machine there that make the guitar get that flex sound.*

Why did you decide to take up the guitar?

I just like it. You see I was in the band first. And when I played in the Mighty Vikings, Sombrero [Sombrero Club] and The Virtues and The Diamonds Band Coxsone come and see band play. He say “I like that guitar man there” he said Rupie a man named Rupie. And he say “boss want to see you” and King Stitt. And I go to Dodd’s and Dodd say he like me and Robbie Lynn. Robbie Lynn yeah. Take two of us.

What sort of a man was Coxsone Dodd?

Oh. I like him. See, they say he’s a shrewd man in the thing. But see. He’s expert see?

Did you get paid?

Me? I get weekly pay at that time. That was enough for me and girlfriend.

How did you start to become a musician?

Oh, you see I have an uncle in the business. He was a bandleader at the time of The Vikings, The Virtues and Byron Lee were running. He was The Thunderbirds band. He was from Mandeville.

What was his name?

Tony Hammond. He is in Miami. Doing big things up there. Yes dread. Food things. Yes dread. He’s my uncle and he taught me. He taught me the guitar you see? And he give me his work in his band first and they see me play and The Vikings and The Virtues take me and I come to town and stay in Kingston. He was a Mandeville man.

So that was the band era of Eric Dean’s Orchestra and all that?

Yes. And Kes Chin and Souvenirs and Ernie Ranglin and them man there.

Byron Lee’s another man who they say is a bit shrewd. What do you say about him?

You see he is principle. He keep up a principle in his band. You don’t go late on the show and you don’t eat and food when the band is working and the band is playing. Some bands do that and they lose people. Lose money. Yes dread.

Its about professionalism?

Yes, really. You have to have principle. Else you wear your shirt out over your pants. And your girlfriend and three girlfriend. You see them things. The bandleader don’t like that thing. (laughs). You suit the boss.

They say Byron Lee wasn’t the real thing. They say when it comes to ska, The Skatalites were the real thing. He wasn’t respected

Yes, The Skatalites or Sound Dimension. I come in The Sound Dimension from Studio One and another band was The Soul Vendors same Studio One. Me too with Joe Isaacs and Robbie Lynn.

Well, you would have been involved with Roland Alphonso then?

Yes. I play Roland and Tommy [McCook]. All them bands. I play with The Soul Vendors. Sound Dimension is a strict reggae band with Jackie Mittoo and Robbie Lynn and Rico [Rodriguez].

Were you part-time guitarist with the Soul Vendors?

Yes, part-time, yes.

Who were the other guitarists at the time that you were competing with for gigs?

With me? Oh. Well I play with two guitar-players, Patrick Mac [Harold McKenzie?]. He was the Studio One expert. He could play jazz like Ranglin, Ernest. I run about third.

What about Jah Jerry?

Yes they were bad too, you see? The Skatalites. I play a different thing from Jah Jerry and them man.

Did you ever play with The Skatalites?

No, no, never. I play with Jackie and The Soul Vendors and then go into The [Sound] Dimension yeah.

Who do you think is the most talented vocalist that you’ve played with?

Me? Oh I meet a lot. I meet like Ken Boothe and Heptones, Sibbles and Bob Marley and you see I rate them very high. Yes dread. And Dennis Brown really good too. Died. Yes dread.

​ *Mr Frater is describing an amplifier that Coxsone Dodd reputedly invented named “The Sound Dimension’. It had a tape which had about four heads and which could be adjusted and was attached to the guitar. It was essentially an echo-phaser. It was first used in 1968 and has been cited as pivotal to the creation of the reggae rhythm guitar sound.

Is it true that you toured here (Australia) in the early sixties?

I’ve never toured Australia before.

But, your record was certainly very big over here and I think you know, of course, which record I’m talking about, ‘The Duke Of Earl’. How many copies did it end up selling?

(Laughs) that’s a good one. 'Duke Of Earl' listen it sells so much and it has sold so much over the years, I really couldn’t tell you. Because you know its about, since 1962, about forty years or something like that. We’ve sold oh millions and millions of it. It’s still selling today. It’s one of those phenomenal records. I don’t know what to tell you because it still sells today. Very big.

You have a slice of the royalties on it though I believe.

I’m a writer. Actually, I wrote the song and I gave a piece of the song to one of the guys in the group who’s name was Earl and to the manager. Her name was Bernice. She put the line in there. She took some line out, I can’t remember what it was, and she added in there “will walk through my dukedom” and I gave her a piece.

For that line?

Well yeah. I mean we were young guys. We hadn’t really recorded before. We were just getting started and at the time, you know, I just shared you know? And I’m still that way today really.

It was a number one nationally for five weeks which is a huge record and was pretty big on the pop charts for what people might have called a “black” record at the time. What was life like once you had a hit of that magnitude? How did your life change?

Well you know at the time I couldn’t really tell because we were moving so fast. It was actually the first million-seller for Vee Jay records, at the time the label I was on. The closest they came to a million-seller at that time was 'Raindrops' listen by Dee Clark who was on the label. So it was their first million-seller. Now, once the record began to hit, I was going here, I was going there, I was on planes, there was just so many things happening that I didn’t really realise what was going on until afterwards when I had a chance to sit back and look at it and I said “wow” you know, to get a number one record or a record that big. It was like about the second or third recording, to get a record that big was really, it was fabulous.

You talked about the record company Vee Jay, which was actually a black owned and run record company was it not?

Right.

Which was pretty rare for those days which was all the more galling that you could get such a big hit with that label?

Well it wasn’t too rare to have black-owned record companies doing that day but for one to get such a big pop record, that was rare. That’s why ‘the duke of earl’ was their first million seller. But, there were a lot of black record companies here in America, Chicago, Detroit etc. As you know Motown took off from Detroit around the same time as Vee Jay took off from Chicago. Actually, Motown was a little behind but it came on later. So there were a lot of small black-owned companies that just never had a record the size of the duke of earl.

The story goes that the record was originally credited to The Dukays and the people at Vee Jay pushed it such that they though it would run better if it was by a solo artist namely Gene Chandler. Is that the way it happened?

Not quite. What happened was the group The Dukays went into a recording session. Our first record was a song called ‘A Girl Is A Devil’ and the second recording session we cut a song called 'Nite Owl' listen and ‘The Duke Of Earl’ was the next session. The people who had the first right of refusal to do distribute our records across the country chose the ‘Nite Owl’ record rather that the ‘Duke Of Earl’ record so that left “The Duke” just sitting out there and vee jay records owned the publishing on the ‘Nite Owl’ record so they wanted to hear the ‘Nite Owl’ record and in the process of hearing that they heard the rest of the session. When they heard “The Duke” Calvin Carter, who was the A&R director for Vee Jay Records just went crazy and said “listen, if nobody has that can we have it?”. The problem was that I was the lead singer on all the songs. I was under contract to The Dukays under the Nat label, which was the name of the label owned by Mr Carl Davis and Bill "Bunky" Sheppard and they said “well yeah you can have the record but how you going to work this out?”. So they came with a proposal stay with the group and somebody else will go with the ‘Duke Of Earl’ record or go with the ‘Duke Of Earl’ record and let somebody go with the group. I decided to go on as a single artist and go with the ‘Duke Of Earl’ record and the rest is history.

It would seem that was the best decision that you could have made?

Absolutely.

Was there any resentment from the remaining members of The Dukays at the time?

No because for so many months we agreed to share whatever profits came from both records. Whatever sold with The Dukays and ‘Nite Owl’ and whatever sold with myself and ‘The Duke Of Earl’.

How did you come from singing with friends at school to recording that first single for Nat Records?

Well actually I was with a group called The Gaytones in school. The Dukays were a neighbourhood group they felt like that I was a good lead and they felt that I should be singing with them because I was from the neighbourhood. So I left The Gaytones and went with The Dukays. And we did some cabarets, some shows around Chicago. I ended up going into the service for three years when I was seventeen and half going on eighteen. I went to the airborne rangers for three years. While I was in there I sung as a single artist in special services you know I would sing for the troops. When I came home, I guess maybe three to four months before I came home they got in contact with these people who wanted to get a group and records them. They asked the people would they wait until I come home because I was there lead singer and since I was coming home before long and they agreed to it and that ended up being the Nat Label with Carl Davis and Bill "Bunky" Sheppard and when I came home that’s how I got with the group to record.

They hung around three years waiting for you to return, you must have been a hell of a singer even at that time?

Well you know they didn’t exactly wait for three years because they were out there performing or whatever they were doing in the little club dates they were getting but the contract to record came about three to four months before I came home and since it wasn’t going to be that long before I came home they asked the company would they wait until I came home so their original and real lead singer would be able to lead the singers and I guess I was pretty good, what can I say?

Who were your primary musical influences in those early days?

Well you know I guess there was Nat King Cole, Brook Benton people like that were people that I paid quite a bit of attention and listened to. Group-wise it was 'Pookie Hudson' listen of The Spaniels. I did a lot of his songs when I was in high school. So those were my influences.

I think you can hear a bit of Pookie especially in your early work with the high falsettos?

Oh yeah. Yeah.

A great singer.

Yes that’s true.

What is it about Chicago that has created such spectacular music over so many eras do you think?

Well you know I think Chicago is like any other city. New York has created a lot of great music so has Detroit and Chicago’s the same, you have a lot of people here that came from the south, a lot of church-going gospel singers and the influences sort of travel around the city. There were a lot of blues here in chicago you know muddy waters, chuck berry we go on and on and singing on the corners with groups and everything just like every other city and we happened to have had our good fortune to be successful around the country and around the world with our music.

You recorded for many labels in the 1960s starting of with Nat then Vee Jay, Constellation taken over by Chess, Brunswick then Mercury finished out the decade, how were you treated during that time by the record labels? Did you feel like you were mistreated by any of those labels?

Well I could have been and to some extent maybe I was in the very beginning, but, I didn’t notice it. My parents were kind of smart and they taught me to be smart in the record business and watch my monies and I made a lot of good moves and a lot of good things happened for me. So I imagine there were some things taken from me that I didn’t know about. As far as my contracts were concerned, I never had a problem with those. Those were put together in a correct way that allowed me to do what I needed to do to be successful in the business.

It seemed like you did make very good decisions from time to time when your career needed a lift. To break out of The Duke Of Earl image, for instance, you started working with Curtis Mayfield. How was it working with the great man curtis?

Well it was very nice because Curtis came up with tunes that I thought were my types of songs and those were a lot of love songs. Curtis wrote some beautiful love songs starting off with ‘The Rainbow Song’ and I heard those on the road. We went out on tours and shows together and he would sit down with the guitar and play me some songs and from doing that I began to fall in love with the songs he was writing from 'Man’s Temptation' listen, 'Just Be True' listen, 'Nothing Can Stop Me' listen and so on. I did a lot of his songs. As a matter of fact, Curtis was my salvation after ‘The Duke Of Earl’. I mean, it was his songs that kept me going all the way up until 1970 when I again recorded another million-seller which was ‘a groovy situation’.

Did he instruct you on how you should sing it because it occurs to me that he wrote for so many artists, but, there’s a definite style to the vocal of a Curtis Mayfield song. Do you just fall into the style that Curtis wants or does he actually give you some instruction?

No, he never gave me any instructions I can’t speak for anyone else. He loved the way I portrayed his songs and so I never had a problem. It was just a good marriage. I could hear what he was trying to say and I did it. I did it with a lot of feeling, the words was there, the melody was there and I just did it. There were times that he did play guitar. There were a couple of time where The Impressions some background, but, basically, I did the song on my own, the way I felt it should have been done. As a matter of fact, I did more Curtis Mayfield songs than anyone outside of the impressions.

​My name is Kenny Martin and I’m part of the review known as the Motor City Pioneers. Reason why we call ourselves is that is because we were before Motown. With all due respect to Motown and Berry Gordy, who is a very good friend of mine. And I’m here to clarify any and everything that you want to know about the Motor City Pioneers ladies and gentleman (laughs).

Were you born in Detroit?

Yes I was born in Detroit.

What date?

I was born 1940. November 6. A Scorpio.

Were your parents musicians?

Where I got my musical background was from my grandmother, god bless his soul. She played piano in church but I guess that’s where it rubbed off on me. Because this is something that I’ve always wanted to do, wanted to be and I thank the Lord for it.

Did you sing a lot in church in your early days?

Well you know when I was coming up, coming from a broken home, I wasn’t a real church-going young man. I was kinda bitter. Even though I love the lord today and I believe the Lord, the Lord is my saviour. But, at that time, I didn’t care about anybody or anything. You know the gangs and that sort of thing. And I fell into that. I was getting pulled out of school you know. But one day in Detroit there was an announcement on the radio that said there is a talent show at the Gold Coast Theatre. This was on the Westside. You know, the ghetto. I tell my mama, “mom, I wanna go try” and she said “no, uh huh, boy you stay in school”. And I really want to go, so I called my grandmother, you know how grandmothers, they are the rock. And she told my mother, she says “you let Kenny go and sing. This is what he wants to do”. So I went. And we did a tune called the 'Treasure of Love' listen which was number one at the time by Clyde McPhatter. And it was a tremendous success. I won the talent show that night.

First go?

Yes. Yes. Yes Lord. I was fortunate that a gentleman by the name of Sonny Woods who was the original bass player for Hank Ballard and the Midnighters and Sonny came to me and said would you meet me down at King records. I want somebody to hear you, you know. They had many great artists like Bill Doggett, [Little] Willie John, James Brown, Hank Ballard and the Midnighters you know? And I went down and sung, sung about five tunes and Ralph Bass said “wonderful”, said “I like this kid, I want to record him”. So they signed me to a contract and the first tune that we done was 'The Jivin Mr Lee' listen and that was an answer to tune that was made by the Bobbettes out of New York City called ‘Mr Lee’. (Sings) “One, Two, Three, I am Mr Lee”. Otis Williams and The Charms did the back ground for me. The band was, um, the tenor player was Hank Moore. He was the bandleader for Hank Ballard and the Midnighters. He was in town so they got him and a guitar player by the name of Skeeter Best. All these cats. And that was the beginning. That was the beginning of Kenny Martin.

Who wrote your first hit?

The first hit was by Berry Gordy. He lived on the street called Hague in Detroit and Berry and I used to hang out every day. Then in 1958 we came back with a tune called 'I’m Sorry' listen on Federal that was written by Sonny Thompson. ‘I’m Sorry’ it came number one on the charts, the rhythm and blues charts, I mean, nationally, you know and that was the biggest record that I had. Then they had us to do 'Fever' listen. We did ‘Fever’ and the funny thing about it is they had Willie John because Willie John was kinda real, real giving them a problem, which is why they were interested in me so much. To try to put him in his place you know? Because we had a similarity in our styles in our local, you know?, interpretations and Little Willie recorded ‘I’m sorry’. He did ‘I’m Sorry’ with about a 30-piece orchestra. I did it ‘I’m Sorry’ with five pieces. Mine did much better than his. Then they had me to do ‘Fever’ after I left Federal on Big Top Records with a 30-piece orchestra. And it didn’t do as well as Willie because Willie do ‘Fever’ with five pieces. So that was real, real, real strange.

You sounded a little bit like little Willie John was that a coincidence? Did you style yourself after him?

No, and I didn’t really like it because they were trying to make me sound like Willie and I didn’t like that. That’s why today I’m so glad that, you know I mean, that I’m doing my thing now, you know when you’re young you don’t really know. Man I was 16 years old and I was in a position where I was being manipulated on and I didn’t get a dime off any of those recordings you know back then you know? A lot of cats was getting played for their money all the way. You know? And it was an experience that I would never want to and will not go through again. And I’m just thankful that with the grace of God that I’m singing and that I’ve got my health. I’m just looking forward to spreading love in my songs.

How many songs did you record?

I recorded about seven tunes for Federal and I did a couple of recordings for Big Top.

What was Sid Nathan like?

Sid Nathan he was, he wasn’t a warm person. He wasn’t a warm person. All business and he wadn’t cool as far as I’m concerned (laughs). He didn’t pay me my money.

Which singers do you think you might have been influenced by in your early days?

I really want to sound like Clyde McPhatter because he had those tunes like (sings) “you know the landlord rings my front doorbell, I let it ring for a long long spell”. You know 'Money Honey' listen all those kind tunes.

Tell us what it was like hanging out on a Saturday night with Jackie Wilson.

Jackie was just a beautiful cat. He, he just, he loved women. And the women loved him. I remember we did a show at the Rocknam [?} Palace in New York. Jackie got so hyped and Jackie started crawling on the floor. He took his shirt and everything off. All he had on was his pants. You know what I mean? All of his upper body was, and Jackie was built very nice because you know Jesse was a good fighter, I mean, you know, a semi-pro fighter and Jackie would crawl on the floor like a snake, man, and be screamin’ and hollerin’ at the girls. And I mean this is true to what I saw, the girls were throwing their underwear on the stage and fainting. They had to bring the EMS in there and take quite a few girls out because they had fainted and some were having seizures. And that wasn’t the end of it. The dressing room door, we had big wooden door. The girls knocked the door down and, in doing so, came in and Jackie was laying on the floor. We had to, you understand?, myself and three or four of the friends and guards and his manager and everything, we had to get on top of Jackie to keep the girls from biting and doing everything and scratching him. They were getting the girls off him like they was, they was, it was real rough man. It was a very rough scene. That was in 1960. Were you ever in a vocal group?

This is one of the things that I said I never want to be in a group. You know I didn’t start out in a group. I have, you know, a lot of respect for groups. I never wanted to be in a group because I saw the chaotic things that were happening with cats know? Like we were at the Howard Theatre and The Silhouettes they would fight after every show and it was so silly because they were fighting about girls. This is my chick. This is your chick. My chick. And I said “wow, what’s happening with these guys man?” You know and I mean, I mean there’s enough of all of that to go around. They fought so much that the guy that was in charge of the Howard Theatre didn’t want them back any more.

Where did you get the idea to develop the word forms and the rhymes and all those sorts of things?

Well in the early days would buy like live jive book. Would study the live jives from it and then I would go to dances to play now and the record is playing. When you catch a chorus would put in some of those live jive like we studied from the books into it that the people would go with it.

Where did this book come from?

No, it’s a local book that was printed called ‘Live Jive’

Its Jamaican. It wasn’t American?

No.

Had anyone done it before you?

Yes. Well first DJ locally was the late great Count Matchuki. He’s now deceased.

The other DJs from the early days Roy White and Coxsone…

No those were not DJs. Those were sound system owners. Those were not DJs. Those were owners.

Is there a difference between being a sound system selector and a DJ?

Yeah. Well the same sound selector can be a dj too you know? Because I was selector and DJ. But is only nowadays now different thing. Now you have nineteen selectors and twenty-five DJs you know? (laughs).

For a long time you were aligned with Coxsone Dodd. Did you do any work for the other side? Duke Reid or Buster?

No didn’t do any recordings for Duke Reid nor Prince Buster. But I started recording first for Clancy Eccles.

When he did a gig you would do the DJing before or after?

I was doing Dj before I started recording for Clancy. Started recording for Clancy in ’69. I was DJing long before that.

When did you start out?

1956. I was sixteen.

Was it your own system?

No no. Coxsone.

So Coxsone gave you your start?

Yeah.

What sort of music were you playing at that time?

American rhythm and blues. Then started rhythm and blues begin to get scarce. Then they decided that cause the rock’n’roll was just coming. And then now the Jamaican people never dig the rock’n’roll that much. So the sound system owners now decided to create something the nearest thing to the original American rhythm and blues. So they started a shuffle beat. So you know the earlier tunes got a shuffle beat. Then out of the shuffle beat now then they got the ska. Y’understand?

What were some of the American artists that you tried to emulate in those early days?

Artists like Rosco Gordon, Wynonie Harris, Fats Domino, Louis Jordan all those early artists.

How in your own words did the ska develop out of that shuffle?

Well, the shuffle beat directly begin to change in early ’61 going ’62. Y’understand?

Was it a natural thing? Some people would have you believe that Coxsone just decided let’s just do this off-beat thing or was it a natural development do you think?

Well, he tried it. What he did, certain original American tune what he would do is let the musician write the bars and they would play like the top part for the first four or eight bars then they would change it. But, now the ska. What they did now, when the music started with a shuffle beat now. So when they wanted to change it now, he would instruct the musician to stress on the “ska-ska-ska”. The guitar played the ska.

When did you first actually appear on a record?

1969.

What record was that?

'Fire Corner' listen. Clancy Eccles.

Did you find that work increased for DJs over the period or was there always work out there?

There was always work, but, you see. What happened now, what happened nowadays now. You see most of the producers don’t consider now what they’re recording. They do this thing now so quick thing. So if a guy just go in a studio and curse two bad words on a rhythm it’s all very well and good. They are looking a fool but I don’t do it that way. I don’t record slackness.

Which session did you enjoy the most of all the artists you worked with?

Why there’s many sessions (laughs). There was always good support y’understand. What I would say now majority of all sessions that I worked on with artists I got good support.

Do you have my new CD?

I haven’t. Is this ‘Memphis, Tennessee’ you’re talking about?

Yeah.

No, but I’ve heard a lot about it.

Oh man.

I heard some good things.

It’s a great one. It’s number three on the chart. It’s up for the comeback cd of the year and the comeback artist of the year.

That the W.C. Handy Awards?

Yeah, you know about that?

Oh, yeah.

I’m up for that in May.

I was speaking to Lazy Lester in New Orleans earlier this year and he was up for it. He just missed out unfortunately but I hope you have better luck.

Yeah, man. I’m crazy about it you know? It’s been a long time since I did a CD, did a recording that I appreciated.

Well, look you had a good band behind you. Did you use Duke Robillard I think.

Yeah man. That was a great band and there’s an interview on CBC (Canadian Broadcasting Corporation) on the back end of the cd. I’ve never heard of anything like that before.

Yeah. Well I think people are getting interested in the history aren’t they. Of the music. I mean that’s why I’m ringing you too.

Yeah. So you are able to introduce yourself and also to give some background to your career.

Yeah, exactly.

So I think that was an excellent idea that Hoagy Petersen you know he’s the owner of Stony Plains Records.

Well look, I bet you’ve been interviewed a hundred times though.

You right.

I hope we can ask you some questions which are a bit original hopefully. I’ll be glad if I get three question today that maybe you haven’t been asked for a while and maybe will make you thing about stuff. I know a lot of artists when they are interviewed go into automatic mode you know and say the same thing. Hopefully, we can get you to remember some things that you’ve forgotten too.

Well I hope you come up with some new questions.

Alright. Well the pressure’s on so let’s see how we know. There’ll be a little bit there that you will have heard before that’s just because people want to hear it isn’t it. It’s the important stuff.

Yeah.

I’m gonna start you off, this might seem rude, by not even asking you about yourself, but, asking you about someone else. Another big favourite of mine on the Memphis blues scene is, of course, Isiah Ike Turner. You were involved with him in the very early days when you were recording for modern is that right?

In the beginning you know he was the front-man for modern records so he would go around and find the artist. You know to record. So he came to Memphis and I did 'No More Doggin' listen for him you know? Ike turner wanted to do it himself. Now this particular weekend my band I we were working in Arkansas. So anyway, it’s time to go to work. I go look for the musicians. I go by the tenor-players house Willie Wilks. By his house. And his wife say “Ike Turner say you all had not finished the recording”. But, we had finished the session. So I took off and got to Tuff Green’s house and when I get there I hear ‘No More Doggin’ being played, but, it’s a strange voice. Ike Turner, he’s in there doing my song with my band (laughs).

What was his version like?

Yeah, he was doing my song with my band. So I break in and break it up. So I said man “what are you doing?” He said I wanted to see how it sounds with me doing it (laughs).

I reckon he was lining up to steal it, but, you must have just caught him in time.

I did. I caught him right in the nick of time. See ‘No More Doggin’’ it’s selling today like it was recorded yesterday. I’m sure you’re aware that it’s in a soap opera in Hungary, ‘Romeo and Juliet’. In Hungary it’s in a soap opera.

I didn’t know that. How do they use it?

Well, I’ve been hearing it. But, you know I got it from B.M.I. You know they administer my publishing and most of my mechanics.

They use it in a soap opera in Hungary?

Yeah, every day it’s in ‘Romeo And Juliet’ and it’s also in a cinema in France. So, ‘No More Doggin’ it’s a standard.

See what happened, I got my own label and I put out twelve records on my label and I found out that the big record companies would go to the disc-jockeys and pay them not to play my records. Three or four disc jockeys told me that you know said “the little money you gave me said the big companies” they didn’t give no name “the big companies would come and pay us not to play your records.

Like a reverse payola.

Yeah. And the distributors alike. They would go to the distributors. So they killed me in the United States.

Now tell me was payola a big thing back in the fifties? Do you remember seeing money changing hands or were you not involved in any of that?

No. The record company they took care of that. You know they paId the jockies and gave them presents you know, you know to play the material. But anyway, they killed me in the United States as an artist. But, I think I’m back.

I think so too. I hope so. I was going to ask you. Ike Turner’s a bit of a character as it’s turned out. Was he young and rash and wild back then when he was a teenager like you?

Yeah he was really wild, but, you know I’ve never been wild. Let see. I’m using the wrong term here. I’ve been aggressive. You know in my younger days I was really aggressive, but, I’ve calmed down. I’m an old man now. I’m not a beat-up old man, but, anyway I’m an old man. I take care of me. I’m a diabetic and I’ve got this herniated disc. Boy, that thing is very very painful. Pray that you never get it. I’ve got to get myself back in shape man you know. I’m getting call everywhere to go to work, but, I can’t work no place you know.

You can’t sit on the bench?

You know I play standing up.

Do you?

Yeah. I play the keyboards standing up. I never sit down.

Did you never sit down and play?

No. But see now I’ve got my keyboard right here in front of me. I keep it in the bedroom always hooked up. If I want to play all I do is hit a button. You know if an idea hit me.

You’ve just come up with something have you?

It’s brand new. I didn’t recorded it yet.

Have you got the piano there.

Yeah?

Can you give us a couple of licks? See how it’s going?

You want to hear my ‘Honky Tonk Woman’?

I’d love to hear it.

Ok. Let me turn it on here. See I’m learning how to play sitting down. You know I never sit down to play.

That must be unusual. You must feel strange doing that.

It’s a whole new idiom for me (laughs). Looking out at the keyboards instead of looking down. But, anyway this ‘honky tonk woman’ it’s going to be a thing man. I’ll play a little of it for you.

(Plays new song)

That’s great. That’s fantastic.

Man, I’m so crazy about that thing. You know I’m having so much fun writing it. You know all my kids are gone. I’m hear alone. They’re all married. Anyway, that’s another new one I’m working on.

That’s like a soul tune there.

Yeah man. I think I’m having so much fun here you know. No disturbance.

Your own little world.

Yeah. I got my keyboard. I bought myself a new keyboard. I got the Roland 300 and I got so many different sounds, so many different, you know, tunes on it.

One thing about that, your voice is , I hope this doesn’t sound rude, stronger than it was in the 50s.

Oh yes. No, I don’t think it’s much stronger. What it is, I know how to handle it now. See, back then I played, but, I played for fun. I don’t play for fun no more now. It’s a business.

Back then it was about fun because Memphis had a pretty good scene didn’t it for rhythm and blues and what not? Tell us about some of the interesting characters you met around Memphis in those early days of the late 40s and early 50s.

I worked with all of them you know. Ray Charles, Big Joe Turner, Ruth Brown, Jerry Butler, Brook Benton, The Clovers you name it I worked with them. But, the worst gig I ever had in my life (laughs). I played in gig, I won’t go into no specifics, I played a gig with three accordions (laughs). Can you imagine ‘No More Doggin’ being played with three accordions (laughs). No drums, no guitar, no bass, not nothing, just the three accordions (laughs). That was the worst gig I ever had in my life.

Now if it’s three accordions it would have to be in Louisiana. But, I don’t want you to incriminate yourself.

Oh, you know where it was? (laughs).

Oh well, I was down there last year and yeah they like the accordion sound down there in the swamplands don’t they?

Yeah man. Well that’s where it was. It was in Louisiana. But, I won’t give no specific town or nothing like that.

I’m sworn to secrecy.

(Laughs) can you imagine the sound? I remember it like it was yesterday. That was one of the early gigs. Another terrible gig I worked in B.B. Beaman’s Auditorium in Atlanta Georgia. I worked there with Mel Walker and Little Esther and (sic) Clyde Otis, he had the band.

That the Johnny Otis Band yeah?

Johnny Otis. Yeah it was Johnny Otis. You right. So anyway, I did three shows. I did 'Booted' listen twice on the first show, twice on the second show and twice on the third show and I haven’t played booted since (laughs). I hate it.

You haven’t played ‘Booted’ since?

Nooo. I hate it man. Can you imagine doing that thing six times back to back?

And that was the last time you played it?

That was the last time.

It wasn’t just because you got involved in a free-for-all between chess and modern over that record. It started a big fight didn’t it?

Yeah. They had a thing going there. See they kept it hidden from me. But, after that chess, he didn’t record me no more. They wouldn’t have anything to do with me. Chess wouldn’t. But, I didn’t know any better. You know I’m like 16 years old. What do I know about doing the same tune for different companies. I didn’t know.

They didn’t pay you anyway did they?

No. The only thing they gave me a little bit. Now ‘Booted’ stayed number one for thirteen weeks. Sam Phillips gave me one hundred dollars. One hundred. No royalties. No nothin. But, I did it for the Biharis [Modern/RPM Records], now they gave me six hundred dollars. No royalties. No nothin. But, like I say, I didn’t know any better.

But, you wrote that record?

No, I didn’t write it. Courtney Harris wrote ‘Booted’. I was in the studio, in Sam Phillips studio, it was on the piano there. I like weird things anyway. If you listen to any of my recordings I have some weird things like 'Saddle The Cow and Milk The Horse' listen. Do you remember that?

Yeah ‘Decorate The Counter’ and my favourite which is ‘Cheese and Crackers’.

'Cheese And Crackers' listen. Well, I didn’t write that either. But, like I tell you I like weird things. I wrote ‘Saddle The Cow And Milked The Horse’ you know ‘coz I was on my way to the studio and I had a magazine and I saw some lyrics. I was reading a story in there. Everything in the story was written backwards. So when I got to the studio I wrote ‘Saddle The Cow And Milk The Horse’ backwards just the same way. You know I say “I saddled the cow and milked the horse, tied knots in my spaghetti, poured ketchup all over my shoes". You know, I’m still messed up with something different.

You like a novelty. Or something new thrown in anyway.

Yeah.

Well, you did a couple of mambo sort of rhumba type tracks too which was pretty unusual for those days.

Yeah, 'Rosco’s Mambo' listen.

And is there one called ‘Maria’ or something?

'Maria' listen yeah. That’s on the flip-side of ‘No More Doggin’.

Were you into that sort of sound? I think you’d call it a latin sound. South of the border thing. Were you into that sort of music at all?

Whatever came to me. That’s what I did. That was one of those songs that came to me and I was able to put it together with the band. See, I had my own band at that time. So I was able to put it together with the band so. But, we thought that was going to be the record, but, ‘No More Doggin’’ was the record.

You mentioned Little Esther. What was Little Esther Phillips like?

I don’t know. I only worked with them that one time. Only the one time. Little Esther and Mel Walker. I only worked with them the one time. After that show I went back to Memphis and I put my own band together man. The bandleader told me, “if you don’t like it, those are the only tunes you got out there. If you want to do somebody else’s tune”. I don’t know anyone else’s tune. He said “well ok, this is what you got to do, if you don’t like it, get your own band”. When I got back to Memphis I got my own band.

There’s someone back in Memphis I’m sure you know better than Little Esther and that’s a guitarist whose name was Pat Hare.

Oh yeah. Pat hare was on this thing 'Shoobie Oobie' listen”. I recorded, did a lot of things with Pat Hare.

He was a great guitarist. He played behind Bobby Bland too and did some of his own things like ‘I’m Gonna Murder My Baby’ and stuff.

Yeah, well he did it. He said, "'I’m Gonna Murder My Baby' listen".

He was true to his word wasn’t he?

Right. Well I find other characters in my songs (laughs). I’m not the character in any of my songs. I find other characters.

What kind of a man was Pat Hare?

The only thing I can tell you is he drinked a lot. God bless the dead. He drinked a lot and he was a terrific guitarist. His vocal, I don’t think his vocal was too, I guess I’m using the right word, but he was a great guitarist well he was a great personality. Above all he was a great personality.

Like you say, he was a great guitarist, but, he was a wild guitarist. A really raucous sound. A bit like your piano too. Why do you think this Memphis sound was so raw and unrestrained?

Because of Sam Phillips. You know Sam Phillips, he would take you in the studio, he would keep you in there all night doing one song. But, the one thing I appreciate about him. I saw him last month. You know there doing a thing on him. So he autographed one of the pictures, you know the picture with the rooster on my shoulder? I don’t know if you saw it or not.

From the movie.

Yeah, from the movie ‘Rock Baby Rock It’. But anyway, he autographed my picture and I talked to him about it and not paying me. He said, “it was like that”. You know I did thirty-something songs for him and I wrote ninety per cent of them. I’ll re-phrase that, I wrote ninety-nine per cent of the songs that I recorded for him and he paid me no royalties. He would give me twenty-five dollars, fifty dollars, seventy-five dollars. A hundred dollars was the biggest amount, that was the most he ever gave me. That was for the first recording.

Have you tried to get those royalties back?

No. He’s not going to pay ‘em. You know I talked to him in this film about him not paying me, he said “well, it was like that”. But, you know he’s kind of an old guy now. He’s like in his seventies.

You’ve mentioned Sam Phillips, I was going to ask you for some quick words on a couple of label-owners who you probably ran into over the years, the first one being the Biharis brothers who owned Modern and RPM.

They’re the same way. They didn’t pay me. No, I recorded for them. But, they gave me more money than same. Because the would give me two or three hundred dollars, you know, to do a session. But, Sam, he was a fifty dollar, twenty-five dollar man. He didn’t give you no more. But, I tell you what they, the Biharis [Lester, Jules, Saul and Joe Bihari of Modern/RPM Records], they didn’t take all the writer’s rights. But, they did take the publishing. They gave me twenty-five and fifty per cent of the songs I wrote for them. And they put ‘Taub Ling’, I never heard of, I never you knew anything about ‘Taub Ling’, but, anyway, that’s who they hung on me. They put ‘Taub Ling’ was partial writer on all the songs I did for them.

Who was ‘Taub Ling’?

I don’t know. I never knew. I never found out. But see, back during that time, I didn’t care who was what, because, I knew the only money I was going to get was the recording money. You know I found that out early. They weren’t going to pay me any royalties.

Do you think it’s fair to say that really at that time no one would have known how much the royalties were worth. Who knew that in fifty years’ time these recordings would still be so popular?

Who thought that? I didn’t. You know, I figure after this it’s over. I wrote over three hundred songs. And they were all released. Even the practice songs, like you go to the studio and practice, even they were released. Everything. And these people are making money off me today. You know like, Shelby Singleton, he’s making money off me. The Bear Brothers in Germany, they’re making money. Charly Records you know in England there making money off me. And Vee Jay’s making money off me. You name it, everybody’s making money off me but me.

But, you have managed to get back some of the royalties and some of the rights to some of your tunes and that helps you live from day to day.

Yeah, well I was able to get back 'Just A Little Bit' listen. I got all of the rights to ‘Just A Little Bit’. The writer’s rights, the publishing, everything.

Well that’s an important song isn’t it?

You know fifty-some act did ‘Just A Little Bit’. And they’re still doing it, every day I get a letter from fox saying someone’s requesting my licence. You see fox is the administrator of my publishing company. So anyway. Every other week I get where somebody want to do ‘Just A Little Bit’.

I’m so glad to hear that. I didn’t realise you’d got the rights to that back because there are usually four other names next to that song and it’s not Gordon.

Washington. I don’t know anything about any Washington. And Tiny Brown, I don’t know anything about him. Now Ralph Bass, I knew Ralph Bass. He was the one I auditioned for. See I took my band to Cincinatti you know to record the song for King Records. So anyway. But, we did the thing. He said he didn’t want it. But, he got it on tape. So I go to Vee-Jay in Chicago, vee-jay, you know, James Bracken, I go to James in Chicago and record the thing. So when it come out it’s not my song no more. It belong to ralph bass because he got the copyright on it.

And you didn’t give any permission for that to be released?

No. But, now Vee-Jay, they gave me $250. The song sold over four million for me. And it’s still selling for me and for everybody else. You know Elvis Presley did it. The Beatles did it. 'Roy Head' listen, Little Milton, Etta James and Jerry Butler. Just go on down the line. Everybody you can think of. Even, Jerry Lewis, he did it, 'Jerry Lee Lewis' listen? He recorded it.

Yes. It’s a very important song. Especially in England as well, the bands there in the ’60’s, a lot of them did it.

Look you can go anywhere in the world man, if the band are bigger than three pieces they will play “just a little bit”.

Getting back to Sun Records, it always sounds like you’re having fun on your recordings. Was there a party atmosphere in the studio?

Yeah, man, back then I had so much fun I tell you. It was unbelievable. You know you don’t have to worry about the audience. You don’t have to worry about being correct. Well, that time you didn’t have to be correct well now you had to be correct. So, it was just a fun thing. You know I used to sing in the cotton fields. When I go in the cotton fields i’d to sing all day long, in the cotton field, when I was young. And when I get off the bus or the truck or whatever we went to the cotton field on people would gather around me because they knew I was going to entertain them all day long. I would sing (laughs). So, I had no problem with the audience. Thank god, I have never been booed in my life.

Never?

Never. Now isn’t that strange?

I reckon that’s pretty rare over a career of 50 years or something.

Never been booed. Man, but I know what it feel like. Tell you why I know what it feel like. See my son was on the amateur show at the Apollo. They use to have it on channel four. I don’t know if they still have it or not. But anyway, they booed him.

That’s what Apollo audiences are like though aren’t they?

Yeah man. They have killed many great acts. You know by booing them. Because, now my son, he has a great voice, but now he won’t even sing in his choir. He won’t even sing in the bathroom. You know because when they booed him, man, it tore me apart. It hurt me. I know what it feel like to be booed now. But, god blessed me. I’ve never been booed.

Some people have suggested that you and your band got drunk before you did a session. That wouldn’t be right though would it?

No, I never drink.

Back in the Sun days.

In the Sun days I drank a little wine. I drink wine. But, I got drunk three times in my life. And man the feeling, after being drunk I thought “this is crazy, I’m going to buy something that’s going to make me sick?” You know I would be sick, man, three or four days. The drunkness was an accident. A guy came up with some white whiskey, white lightnin’, they call it white lightnin’ it was like water but it was sweet. And I drinked that stuff. Man, I’m telling you. Twice I did that. I was in (sic) Tulane [Tulare] California and a guy came up with some, let’s see what is this thing?, a screwdriver. It’s sweet like orange juice. I drink that stuff. I got drunk. My chicken got drunk and my chicken vomited all over me.

Tell us about Butch the chicken.

Well, see Butch he’d drink scotch. He didn’t drink that much scotch. Because every night when we work I would open up a bottle of scotch on stage and pour a top-full. But, now he don’t get no liquids after two o’clock. Like if we workin’ tonight, he don’t get no liquids after two o’clock this afternoon until show time. So we would go on stage. I would open up a bottle of scotch, brand new bottle of scotch, and pour a top-full and he would drink it. He ate whatever I ate. If I ate steak well he had a steak. I eat bacon and eggs, he’d eat bacon and eggs. (laughs) you know, we were like buddies.

How long were you and Butch a double act?

Butch lived for a year and a half. Well, see he was a pet already. He belonged to my nephew. My nephew said “Uncle Rosco you got (the hit song) 'The Chicken' listen”, he said “I’ll sell you my chicken for thirty dollars”. So I said “OK”. So I got his chicken. I got on the plane I’m going to Dallas, Texas. I got 41 one-nighters in Dallas Texas. Anyway not Texas it’self but Louisiana and Oklahoma - you know, all around that area. Anyway. I get on the plane. I got him in a cage when I get on the plane. But, once we get on the plane, I take him out of the cage, he walkin’, he struttin’ down the aisle and people passin’ him. He had a big old red comb on top of his head oh man. He was a great buddy. When I had a suit made for me I him one made just like mine.

For the chicken?

Yeah man.

How much do you know about your influence on Jamaican music?

Well, about several years ago I found out about that they used my music as a guideline you know? They would play my music, but, they would buy them but nobody would know who it was on, the buyer wouldn’t know who the artist was and they would practice my style and they came up with this bluebeat and ska and reggae. I found this out. I was on a radio station here in new york, they compared a lot of my stuff and played a lot of my stuff that they had recorded where they got their ideas from.

It’s true isn’t it, at least in the late ‘50s and early ‘60s that they Jamaicans were big into that shuffle-boogie sound, I mean that’s all they wanted to hear. And isn’t it true that you toured there a number of times?

Yeah I went over there a lot of times. I played for a beauty contest in Kingston.

That would have been a pleasure.

Oooh man. The lights went out. So I had my band with me so when the lights went out my band and I we played during the whole black out. And the next day my picture was on the front page of the newspaper all over down there and the platters were on the show. But anyway, when the lights went out, man, you know I saw some of the most beautiful women I ever saw in my life. Beautiful, beautiful, lovely women down there. But, anyway my picture was on the front page and everywhere we worked after that the platters would be on the set you know and the whole crowd would yell, “we want Rosco!”, you know, start applauding. You know that was embarrassing because the platters were my idols also you know.

Did they hold it against you?

No, they showed no remorse whatsoever. But, anyway when they went on stage, man I would, you know, sit out in the audience, you know, if I could sit out I would get somewhere where I could hear them. You know, they were the greatest act I think I ever heard in my life. You know, Zola. You know, Tony Williams, he was the leader man you know and herb, herb sang bass. And David he sang. But anyway it was so embarrassing. I went down there (Jamaica) several times, but, they never forgot me you know.

What would you say made Jamaican audiences different from the audiences you were used to in America?

Well they seemed to have more energy. You know they would learn the songs and when I would sing the songs they would sign right along with me you know. But, they’re still doing that. I don’t mean in Jamaica, you know I went to England three times last year and they would actually play a song and everybody would start making music (sounds it out “doo doo doo”) you know the whole audience (laughs). It was great.

Can you tell me, when did you first play in Jamaica?

It was in the late ‘50s. You know ’56, ’57.

Did it surprise you when you first got the call. Did you realise that people in the Caribbean were listening to your tunes?

But, hey I had the number two, three and four slot over there! You know ‘The Chicken’ and 'Surely' listen and what’s this other thing, ‘Booted’ and these tunes were in the charts and they knew those songs.

Did you meet any local musicians when you were there?

No because the agent he kind of rushed us off. You know we were doing one-nighters more or less. You know we play here tonight, and then we go to another town San Paulo just all over you know. San Juan and Georgetown, British West Indies all over down there. It was just great.

What sort of a place was it at the time? It’s a very dangerous place today, Kingston, was it a dangerous place then?

No, the danger was in Rio. You know because they had struck oil down there and the government was taking over man. You know just, those people, I felt sorry for those people man. Because they would be on the front page of the newspapers where there fighting they’re sons don’t even have pants on. You know got a shirt on, they got a hat and no, you know and got sticks, they’re fighting with sticks. You know it was ridiculous but, the government is the government anywhere you know so.

Were there any other strange places outside of America, or even inside America, that you played in those days of the ‘50s and ‘60s?

Yeah. I played a lot of weird places man in the United States (laughs). You know like I worked in a Lufkin I stopped in a place called Corrigan? You know to get something to eat. I always travel alone. Yeah, I stopped to get something to eat in one of the dairy queens, you know, get a milkshake and a couple of hamburgers you know those people chase me out of there man!

What did they chase you for?

(Laughs) segregation. Yeah man, they chased me out of their town if I didn’t have a good car. See I was on my way from Houston going to Lufkin. But, anyway, I stopped in this town and all those people. They let me get my order but when I got in my car all the people that were in the place came out after me.

What town was that?

Corrigan. Corrigan, Texas.

Did you have many bad experiences like that?

No, but see I learned from that first experience I learned, but anyway my drummer he experienced something terrible down there. You know I told him, I said “look don’t go to the fountain and drink water man” I said “get you a cup and go to the bathroom but hide it somewhere, don’t go to the fountain”. So he gonna go to the fountain, you know, to get a drink of water. Well jack comes out and puts a foot in his butt. I mean put a foot in his butt man. So anyway, I had the same thing happen to me. My car broke down in Arkansas and I’m walking home. You know my car broke down so I can’t drive the car. So they caught me on the corner of Crump Boulevard and Florida Street. I lived on Florida Street. They pulled up man and asked my where was I coming from. So I told them “look my car broke down I’m trying to go home”. They said “where do you live?”. I said “right down the street there and so one of them, man, he put a foot in me you know. I had to have an operation. I think that’s what that operation came from. My vertebrae’s being busted like that. I mean he kicked me a lift up off the sidewalk. So I said “hey man, now aren’t you ashamed?”. I said “you got a gun, a stick and a licence to kill me and you’re twice as big as I am and you gonna kick me?”. And so he says “get home or i’ll kick you again”. So anyway, I had a lot of those incidents. Yeah, I had another one in Memphis there. I made a turn in front of a bus and the bus-driver want to get off the bus man. He was gonna park his bus and come and get me. So anyway, when he came after me, I kept a jackhammer under my front seat so when he came after me I let him get close enough where he couldn’t get away so anyway by the time he got close enough for me to open the door I opened the door and jumped out with that jackhammer in my hand and he took off like a jet. But, I caught him and I hit him one time. I didn’t hit him on the head. I hit him on the shoulder with that jackhammer. It was just like somebody had cut him you know. Blood just shot out through his shirt. But, I had to get out of that place man because if somebody weren’t going to kill me I was going to kill somebody.

When you say “that place” do you mean Memphis?

Yeah. I had to get out of there man. But anyway, that’s still home and I like to call it home.

I’m interested that you say that. I mean there would be no more important town in the history of black music than Memphis Tennessee and you say you had to get out.

Yeah, I had to get out man because the segregation. You don’t know what segregation is. You know being black in the south. You don’t know what segregation is. It’s really murder.

Worst in the Delta I suppose?

All over down there man. It didn’t die. It’s still alive (laughs) it’s alive and well all down there. But you know it’s not as open as it was back in the ‘50s and early ‘60s. They kind of close the doors a little bit.

Was it much better up north because you did travel around and record with Vee-Jay and these sort of labels. Did you find that you were better treated from day to day in the big cities of the north?

Well the big cities primarily they were the same. You know they would give you a spot. You couldn’t go in the hotel you know. But, down south you couldn’t check into hotels. You could go into hotels, you know, and live like people. But, they had certain places they would put you in the hotels know the top floor, the back room (laughs). But anyway, it’s much better now. Even Vegas was messed up like that man. This was in the late ‘50s, I couldn’t go in the front door in Vegas. Now can you imagine, they wouldn’t let, you could go in the back door. If they had room back there for you, you know? You could sit down and they had speakers, but, you couldn’t see the acts. It’s a little better. You know they still beat you. They only one that really beat me was Sam Phillips. He beat me. And the Bihari brothers, they beat me. Vee-Jay, they beat me. It just go on and on down the line.

What do you mean, they assaulted you?

No, they took my music. You know I wrote over three hundred songs. So anyway I did 37 for Sun Records.

You talk about the record company owners “beating you”. There was one man who was actually known for physically beating his artists and that’s Don Robey. What are you prepared to say about your meetings with Don Robey from Duke-Peacock?

Well Robey he beat me also. But, Robey would record me and give me x amount of dollars. See I got no royalties anyway, back then you know there were no royalties, so I would take money from any record company that wanted to pay my price and record me so I would record the money but not Robey didn’t want me to play the piano. He wanted me to do things his way you know. And he would talk about what he would do to me. God bless the dead. But anyway, he kicked Little Richard you know. Put him in the hospital. I heard a lot of stories but I don’t have any proof. Hearsay is no good anyway. You know, what somebody tell you.

Did you meet many bad people in that industry? Did it attract criminals and bad people?

No because I’m pretty much a private person. I would go to my gig and work my gig. I’d go to the craps table and after that I would go to the hotel and get out of town. I was caught one time in one of those incidents. In Los Angeles the guy tried to put a woman on me you know. And he said I had impregnated her and he wanted money. He wanted me to give her x amount of dollars so.

Blackmail attempt?

Yeah. But anyway I got out of that one and I got caught up in another one in Dallas. A girl, she and some guy, you know they tried to get me. She tried to get in my car and I took over and drove her about a block and they tried to sue me. But anyway I got out of that one. These people were after people they thought had money. If anybody thought you had money they tried to get you. You know I almost got caught up in, you know like Sam, Sam Cooke, he got caught up in the three-way switch. You know what the three-way switch is?

Why don’t you explain it?

No, no the three-way switch. You know he get the girl. The people that own the hotel or motel they’re in on it. So what you do, you go up to the hotel with the girl. The girl insists that you take a bath. You know take a shower, take a bath, whichever the case may be. So while you’re taking a bath, she hand your clothing out the door, she don’t go into your pockets, she hand your clothing out the door to the third party and he take all the money all the valuables in your pocket and put the clothes back. See now they took my clothes and everything else, all the little money I had, but, I didn’t retaliate. I saw the girl and the guy the next day.

So you were caught in the same situation. Whereas Sam burst into the hotel manager’s room and got shot you just left it that did you?

Yeah, but anyway. All this is hearsay, but, I know what the switch is. See, he probably caught the people and he chased them because, you know, he probably had more money than I did, anyway, he chased them and they shot him.

Is this your theory or have you spoken to people which makes you think this is exactly what happened?

There’s no other way. That’s the only way it could have happened. They robbed him and he caught them and he tried to retaliate. And they shot him. See I didn’t retaliate. When they took my clothes, my money and whatever. I had more clothes in my car. I go to my car and get some more clothes. And the next day I see the people and I ignore them. See I’m sure he tried to retaliate.

It’s amazing anyone from that era survived to this day isn’t it really?

I’m telling you man. It’s awful. They will do you in man you know. You know that three-way switch thing. You can’t win. The only way you gonna can win is if you die or get hurt.

You talk about Sam Cooke. Did you ever meet Sam Cooke?

Yeah. His girlfriend, the girl he was supposed to marry, I live with her often. Yeah, we stayed together, we were supposed to have got married, we stayed together for about four and half years. But, anyway I knew him.

So you went out with Sam Cooke’s girlfriend before him?

He was first. After him.

TBC

Your Wikipedia entry shows two different years of birth. Is there some reason why that can't be established?

Yeah, they put what they wanted to put and I just never changed it. It's 1937.

It's strange that they wouldn't correct that. That's sort of what they're meant to do.

Well I never tried to get them to correct it.

Did they get the birthday right at least? The 12th of August, is that correct?

August 12th, 1937 is the correct one.

Now, can you tell me this Roy, in your opinion, why do all the best guitarists come from Houston, Texas, or thereabouts?

Well, I have no idea about that, except T-Bone Walker came from Texas, and he was one of the leading players in the blues that led to jazz and led to royal blues, and led to all types of blues. T-Bone Walker started it. T-Bone Walker is from Texas. And I think everyone was trying to pick up on T-Bone, which made them just a tad better than the other blues artists, guitar pickers.

Do you remember seeing T-Bone Walker play live?

Yeah. He's in my career forever, because when I was 14, he heard about me duplicating him, and he called me on stage with him at a very prominent job, in Houston at the City Auditorium. And we played a song together. When he called me on, he said, "You play and I sing." And he put the guitar on my body and adjust the straps, and we played our song. Well I started it off, and he came in singing.

Do you remember what the song was?

'Cold, Cold Feeling.' listen ​

And how was that for you? Were you nerve-wracked? Were you nervous or did you have enough confidence to pull that off?

I was amazed, but it was a song that I had been using on my show. So it was okay to do the song, but the idea that I was doing it with T-Bone Walker, was exciting. And we became friends, and I helped him in his last days, like I'm in now. I drove him to his jobs and I used to go to his home. And his family knew that I had been around him, in and out of his life all those years. So they accepted me at their home. And I would go drive him to work, because he didn't have managers and all the professional things he had not at that time. He didn't have his support team. So I helped him out.

What sort of a guy was T-Bone?

He was a family man. He had a family. He had two daughters, and one was policeman for the city of Los Angeles. I don't know what the other one was, I can't remember. And then he had two sons, one played guitar, but they never made it to any status like T-Bone. But they tried.

You said you were playing like T-Bone Walker when you were 14 and you got up on stage. How was it that you were having live gigs at 14 anyway? It's very young to be playing live.

Well, I started playing piano when I was six. So if you play piano, you play a concert instrument. The guitar is a concert instrument. So the notes on the staff is pretty much the same. And when you can read music at a young age like that... I had piano teacher that lived across the railway tracks from where I lived at six, and her name was Ms. Punch, P-U-N-C-H. And she taught me the basic music reading habits. So when I told my mother I was going to change to guitar at... It was 14, and I started telling her about it when I was 12, but she rejected the idea so forcefully. And then I had to tell her that I paid for my way in music with my paper routes, and that I had been paying her rent to the tune of $3 for rent, $2 for board.

So she still didn't like the idea. I said, "Well, I've been straight up with you, and I don't want to play piano anymore. I want to play guitar. And so I have a guitar that I want to buy, and I need X amount of dollars to go with, and I think you should give it to me, because I've been paying you rent for over six years." And so she told me, she said, "All the money that you ever gave me, is in that trunk in my bedroom, and you go over there and you go in that trunk, you can get all that money, but I'm going to tell you something. If you get all that money out of that trunk, while you get the money that you've give her to me and I've saved for you, you'll be broke the rest of your days. You will never know how to save any day." So that scared me.

So I wanted in that... All that I needed which was, I think, about... It was about $60 to go with what I had to buy the guitar and amplifier. It was an old Kay guitar, and I asked her at that time, could I go out and play jobs if I got some jobs. Well, it so happened I got a job with a drummer that played with BB King during the time of The Thrill is Gone. His name was VS Freeman. And VS Freeman was BB King's manager at that time. So I went to play with him.

I caught a bus with my new guitar and my new amp. And he had left because he was a real businessman. He left me because the bus was late, and it was dusk, dark, like seven o'clock. And I was scared, with my new guitar and amplifier, I got off the bus, and he was gone, and I'm standing there and a man came. The man said, "Hey young fella, why are you standing on the corner with a guitar and an amplifier? What do you want?" I started crying. I said, "I was supposed to play with VS Freeman, and VS left me. He's gone on to play the job without me. He said, "Well, let me tell you, I can take you on a better job." He was driving a new Cadillac. He said, "I live just across the street where you see all those cars." He said, "I'm a junk yard mechanic. I sell parts and all that." He said, "But that's from my house over there. You can see it from here." I said, "Yeah." He said, "Well, you come over there and I'm going to get dressed, and I'll take you to a better job."

And he did. He went and got dressed, and he took me to a place called The Whispering Pines. The Whispering Pines was owned by a man named Joe Oakman. And he introduced me to Joe Oakman, and when he did, Joe said, "Can this little fellow play guitar?" He say, "He play guitar and sing." And so he said, "Well, you sit in my office, and I'll call you on the show." He said, "We've got Matinees, which is a team of dancers, and we have Peewee, is the comedian, and we'll have you. And so you'll play with the band Otis Turner and it's... I forget what he called the band then, but it was his name first, OtisTurner, he was a piano player. So I waited until they called me on, in the owner's office. And when they called me on, the songs I played, everybody knew those songs. It was Coco Feeling by T-Bone Walker, and it was Boogie Woogie Rambler by Gatemouth Brown.

And so I played three songs, but I just remember those two. And when I went on stage, I was playing, Gatemouth Brown Boogie Woogie Rambler. And the people went crazy to see this young boy of there playing guitar and singing. So they started just throwing money on the stage. And when they threw money on the stage, the man that brought me over there, his name was [Hi Papa] ... Hi Papa reached into his pocket and got a hundred dollar bill and put it in the head of my guitar. And when they, the people saw that, they were throwing money, but they started throwing dollars, $5 and all that. And so, by the end of the night, Hi Papa carried me home and dropped me off. I had all his money. So when my mamma saw me, she said, "Get on in here boy. You stayed later than you said you would." And you get on here and put that guitar down, and get on dressed for bed." And so I stopped by her room. We was in a long shotgun house, they'd go straight back. So I stopped by her room and I threw all this money on her bed. And when she came in and saw all that money, she came and get me and she said, "Where did you steal all this money from?" I said, "I didn't steal it. I stole it with the same thing that you told me not to get, the guitar." And boy, she started liking guitars after that. It shows you how a woman feels about money.

You said that you started on piano. When you were playing piano, whose songs were you playing or who inspired you?

Well, I was mostly playing instrumental songs and I was reading music. I was learning the technique, but I played with my brother's band. And when he didn't have a piano... My brother's Grady Gaines. You ever heard of him?

I have, yes.

Well Grady Gaines is a very prominent saxophone player who played with Little Richard, and he played with Little Willie John, he play with Sam Cook. He play with some great ones, and he was a great soloist. And so what he did, was he hired me to play piano with him when he didn't have a piano player. And so that's the only experience I had playing songs by Fast Domino, and all the people that they were covering. They covered some [inaudible] songs, but mostly songs he covered was saxophone songs like [Big J Mac Kneeling] and all that. So there was all blues. So all I had to do was play the blues.

Your brother, didn't he lead the Upsetters, Little Richard's band?

Yeah, he was the leader of the Upsetters. He gave that name to the Upsetters before they got with Little Richard. And when they left Little Richard, they became the Upsetters again. That's where that happened.

How did you meet Chuck Willis?

When I was 16, I had been playing on my own for two years, and I had another teacher named Mr. Goodman. He came in town... He was a white man. He came in town with... Benny Goodman. So he taught me some things, professional things about guitar that you can only learn if you know how to read music. So I had been taking piano lessons from a very prominent lady, Ms. Punch. She was operatic singer and a piano teacher. So he recognized that, and he started telling me how to play the guitar with big bands, because that's what he came in town with. Benny Goodman was a big man.

So he saw I could read music and how I was a fast learner, so he taught me things that you will only know if you were in a big band setting. That's why the last part of my career, and the first part started off with Chuck Willis, I had an orchestra. And the orchestra, Roy Gaines Orchestra, with Chuck Willis. It was Chuck Willis and the Roy Gaines Orchestra. So I had orchestra, because when you got a orchestra, you attract musicians that can read music. And so that's the only time that I wanted, because I was only 16 and I was hiring musicians to play behind Chuck Willis, and to play in my orchestra.

I was hiring them to read music, because I had my arrangements written up by different first-class musicians. And during that time Count Basie and Duke Allerton was having trouble keeping their band. Not so much Duke Ellington, but Count Basie. And not a whole lot Count Basie, but they were having trouble keeping their bands together, because they were starting new, small bands. Like Louis Armstrong... Yeah, Louis Armstrong.

You mean Louis Jordan?

No, Louis Armstrong who replaced [inaudible]. He had a six-piece orchestra that played ragtime. He's from New Orleans and he played ragtime. And then there was new-ish journey that had a five-piece orchestra. Louis Jordan and his Tympany Five. So those five musicians was the start of the small bands knocking out the big bands who had... that Count Basie, But they were knocking those big bands off the shelf. And they were turning into nine-piece orchestra, seven-piece, eight-piece. And there was a lot musicians didn't have jobs. So I called my small-band orchestra that I had behind until I was... And I was hiring guys that were 40, 50 years old when I was 16 to 18, in New York. Because I went to New York from Houston.

And that's where I met Chuck Willis. So I had the power of Chuck Willis having all those great records out. Like You're Still My Baby and there was a lot of them. And You're Still My Baby was one of the big ones. And Chuck Willis gave me the opportunity to put the band together, because how I was with Joe Morris and Faye Adams playing on the road, and we got to Buffalo, New York, and I gave Joe Adams the trumpet player that he used to play with. He had played with Lionel Hampton, which was a big band.

You get the picture, all these big bands were breaking up because they were hiring all small bands. So what happened was I had the opportunity to use orchestra with my name, and playing behind Chuck Willis gave me a big name for orchestra, because Chuck Willis had all those hit records. And he was a great songwriter. So he wrote all those hits he made. And we were on the road, working, an office agent called Shaw S-H-A-W, Shaw Artist Incorporated. And then Shaw was my agent, and we got the blues section of that company, of that agency. And that was for a man, Jack Allen, I think. Jack Allen was interested in me, and he let me sign to his part agent, because I came with Chuck Willis. Chuck Willis was already over there, at this agent Shaw, this agency.

So the agency was booking big bands, small bands, and all the groups, like The Midnighters and those singing groups. You know what I mean?

Yeah, the singing groups were being booked out of that orchestra again. There was a huge amount of singing groups in New York at that time, and at that agency. So they would give tours and they'll have big tours with maybe three or four singing groups on one bus, and two or three bands... Because the bands didn't have six and seven pieces, maybe three horns and like that for rhythm. So they would have two or three bands on one bus, and then they have another bus with all the singers, the artists. And that's the way they made tours then. So we would all be on different buses. So when we got to the area, we only got a chance to play two or three songs before they go to the next person. But the interesting part was the orchestra bands played behind all the groups. And whatever group that has practice with a band, that's the band they had to perform with. So it was a long show, but it was thought out because everybody had to rehearse with their perspective group, you see?

So that was the first part of then with Chuck Willis. And then it went on to where Chuck Willis made some substantial hits like CC Rider, It's Too Late Baby, Juanita, all those great songs that he made was during the time that my orchestra was with him, and he had signed to be with Atlantic Records. Atlantic Records was the number one blues record label at that time. They had a man over there, Ahmet Ertegun, that was a leader. He was from Europe, but he made that company with, along with two other people. The one I can remember, Jerry Wexler, W-E-X-L-E-R. The other one is his brother Nesuhi Ertegun, and there's a guy by the name of [Abrahamson], I think, as well. Yeah, that's right. You know the history that I'm talking about. So anyway, Ray Charles became very much part of the Atlantic Records. Ray made all those big hits. He had All right... No, what was that song?

I Got a Woman? It's All Right... Oh man, Ray Charles had so many hits.

That big one.

What'd I say?

What'd I Say? That was it. Thank you. And then that was Ruth Brown, and then all those people were on over there with Chuck Willis. Chuck Willis was with them, they were all together. And you named it right, Abraham, Jerry Wexler and Ahmet Ertegun. And they had a great label, and they were very much a part of the history that came out of that era. And Chuck Willis fell right off in there, because he made some very big hits. And we worked as a team up until his death. He died at 32 and that was very tragic.

Did you play on any of those Chuck Willis sessions?

Oh yeah. I played on the most important ones, CC Rider, like that. But they had studio musicians that played. It wasn't essential that I was going to play them, because they would call Chuck back in to New York to do a session. And my orchestra was on the road. And they wouldn't bring me in just for that all the time.

He had a big hits. Tell me if you played on any of these ones. Did you play on Betty and Dupree?

Yeah.

Don't Deceive Me?

No, that was before Chuck and I met. Don't Deceive Me, You're Still my Baby and all that. They were the early songs that he did. He recorded those songs in Atlanta.

You recorded with him in New York, then what about It's Too Late?

I played on It's Too Late.

Keep A-Driving was another good one.

Keep A-Driving.

You played on that?

I played on most all those in one year, all those when he went with Atlantic Records.

Question for you, there's one song, which wasn't a hit, but it's one of my favorite Chuck Willis songs. I wonder if you were on this, it's called Whatcha Gonna Do When Your Baby Leaves You?

Yeah, I played on that. (singing)

There's a steel guitar on that. Who's that? It's like a lap steel.

Yeah, that was a white man. They decided to put him on that the last minute.

Do you remember his name?

No, I don't.

It's all right. Now the bit you left out of the story, was why you were in New York in the first place. What made you travel all the way from Houston to the Big Apple?

Well, it was a logical move, because that's where everything was happening. Then I was with whoever it was at that time. And all I know, I was with Roy Milton. Do you remember Roy Milton?

Of course. Roy Milton and his Solid Senders.

There you go. And I was with him. We parted ways in Washington DC, which is 250 miles from New York. And it was a logical move for me [inaudible] I wasn't ready to come back to Houston, Texas, to move into New York. I moved into New York and I had a job with Joe Morris. That's when I first met him, Joe Morris.

How did you come to meet Chuck Willis, and him to hire you?

I was working with Joe Morris Band, Faye Adams. Shake a Hand, Shake a Hand? You remember that?

Yeah, and Anytime, Anyplace, Anywhere?

Yeah. That's right. So when I was working with Joe Mars, I was also driving the equipment van, and it was extra money for me because in those days you didn't make a whole lot on the road, so if you could make extra driving or whatever, you made it. That's what I did. I was making extra money driving this utility car that you carry all the instruments in, and I was a singer that was singing Faye Adams's song. Her name was Ursula Reid. Ursula was riding in that utility car with the drummer, and that was a very distinguished drummer. I can't think of his name. I think his name was Jimmy something, but anyway, we got to Buffalo, New York where it came from; Florida, all the way up the Coast working, and we had to jump into Buffalo, New York.

We were playing at the auditorium there, and in this auditorium was mega names of artists, like Chuck Willis, and some singing groups. I can't think of their names now, but it was a variety of artists. When it come time to get paid that night, we had played. There was other artists had to play. When I was 14, 15, maybe 15, I had been playing about a year. I used to love to hear Chuck Willis sing some of those early songs, like You're Still My Baby, and Don't Deceive Me. There was a piano player named Clarence Johnson was in Houston at that time, who also felt very excited to hear Chuck Willis sing. He learnt to play and sing just like Chuck.

He played the piano with different bands, and he played behind me sometimes. His name was Clarence Johnson, and Clarence whenever we were working together, he would play those Chuck Willis songs that he knew, and that made me a fan of Chuck without even knowing him. When Roy Milton and I had a run in, in Washington, D.C., and I decided to go to New York... I didn't decide to go to New York. I was working with Joe Adams. When I was working with Joe Adams, we were getting paid off that night in Buffalo, New York, and this tells the story how I got to New York City. I was in Buffalo, New York with Joe Morris, and I was getting paid off, and Joe didn't want to pay me for the gas stops I made, and I told him, "If you're not going to pay me for the gas stops, I'm leaving you right tonight. I'm not going to work for you no more." I didn't know that if I went around and seen Chuck, so I just went around and hollered at Chuck, and tell him that I had been listening to his songs a long time, even when I was 14, and playing in Houston for Clarence Johnson, who was singing his songs. ​ When I went to tell him that, I told him that Joe Morris didn't want to pay me for the gas stops that I made. I was hoping if he was going back to New York, I could get a ride with his band. He said, "I don't have a band here. I just have a piano player, and a horn player, and the horn player [inaudible]," and he said, "but to answer your question, yes. You can ride back with us." He said, "Give me your hotel," and I gave him my hotel. They came by and picked me up, and I rode into New York City with him, and that's when the saxophone player that was rehearsing this music with different bands were fed up, and he was going back to Atlanta, Georgia where they both came from.

The piano player that was playing with Chuck named Jimmy Harris, and Jimmy said, "I don't want the job of leading the band." He said, "Give it to Roy," and so that's how I got to be Chuck Willis's band leader. I named the orchestra Roy Gaines Orchestra, and he carried me over to the Billy Shore Agency, and I got started working for Jack.

Didn't he also write your first recording, Loud Mouth Lucy?

Yeah. I forgot about that. When we were recording, he said, "I think this would be a good song for you." I put it on, man, and the rest is history. It was a good song for him.

Yeah. You recorded that for Chart Records in Miami, which was, I think, one of Henry Stone's labels.

That's right, Henry Stone and Chuck Willis is singing on that song with me. He sang in on the chorus. [inaudible] [inaudible] Loud Mouth Lucy. He would come in Loud Mouth Lucy, and then he would come in, also, "You just talk, talk, talk, pretty baby, talk"... He was singing up there and I was singing, "You just talk, talk, talk, pretty baby." That's Chuck Willis singing up there on that song.

That's amazing. I don't think anyone... I've never seen that mentioned anywhere that that was Chuck Willis on that. That's amazing.

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

When did you record Loud Mouth Lucy?

In Miami for the gentleman you just called-

Henry Stone.

Henry Stone, yes. That's why I did those first recordings that did a little bit for my career.

How did you come to be signed by RCA, Groove Records?

I was being managed by a man named Joe Tenaro. Joe Tenaro went and had a meeting with RCA. It wasn't RCA. It was one of those subsidiary labels.

It was called Groove Records, but it's a subsidiary of RCA.

Yeah. You're right. He went to talk with Groove about recording me, and then the idea came up with RCA Victor after he heard me recording for Groove that I'd be great on RCA Victor at the same time Elvis was over there, but I did [inaudible] for RCA Victor, and that's when I thought my career was going to be a longstanding career in Rock and Roll, but it didn't happen like that. I can't say it for sure that had Elvis Presley over there and a lot of white guys that were recording for RCA Victor, and that was their offspring into the Rock and Roll, and I think they held my stuff back because it started off to be really big, Skippy Is A Sissy.

Do you have any idea how many copies Skippy Is A Sissy sold?

No because it was a thing they shut it down in the beginning because it looked like it was going to really take off, and I'm saying they was trying to protect white Rock and Roll. Little Richard and all of them was shaking in their boots because Skippy Is A Sissy looked like it was going to really do something, but it got quietened down, and I never saw the like of what happened. Skippy Is A Sissy is being played today in parts of the world you wouldn't imagine it being played because it's got such a Rock and Roll beat to it. I would venture to say if Skippy Was A Sissy was mixed over for radio today, radio today, Skippy Is A Sissy would be an enormous hit record of Rock and Roll because it's got all the beats, but they wasn't mixing the drums up to where they're mixing them now.

They wasn't mixing the bass up. They wasn't mixing the piano up or the guitar up. Now, they got guitar, piano, bass, and drums up above almost everything. If they mixed it for radio today, it would be an enormous hit record.

You wrote Skippy Is A Sissy. Didn't you?

I wrote Skippy Is A Sissy. I got over 200 songs. After that happened, I decided I wasn't going to be with any more record companies, but I did go to a few along the way, but I own most of the publishing on all my songs.

That's good. That's good because many artists didn't own their publishing, and lost those royalties. Right?

Right. Right, but it hasn't done me any good, other than I get some some royalties, and I have 200 songs. I have 22 albums out, and 200 songs in my publishing company that mostly I wrote.

If you go on Spotify, you can hear all my stuff. It's being played on Roy Gaines Radio Spotify, and I got another radio station, Roy Gaines Radio Pandora, and you can hear all my stuff.

Yeah? What was your inspiration for Skippy Is A Sissy?

Well, I was working around Joe Tenaro, and we decided we was going to do the Rock and Roll bit, just a one-shot deal for RCA Victor instead of recording for Groove, which is a subsidiary of RCA Victor, so we thought we'd better get between Little Richard, Elvis Presley, and Bo Diddley was out then with some great Rock and Roll. There was not a lot of great, outstanding Rock and Roll records out then, and then Elvis Presley was recording on RCA Victor, and so we tried to come in the middle somewhere, and that's what was the inspiration for Skippy Is A Sissy. But who was Skippy?

Skippy's a dog, but we made the dog look like he was a man, Skippy, Hippy, Dippy, Whippy, bark for me. Its like that. And you say you ain't nothing but a dog with fleas, right?

Right. You make a person look like he's a legitimate dog, and that's the way we did it.

Your guitar work on that is pretty insane. Can you remember thinking at the time, "Wow. I really nailed that"?

Well, everybody has a favorite solo. The solo played on Loud Mouth Lucy, people liked that for a reason. Solos I played on Gainesville, the solos I played on some of Chuck Willis's songs. I always had some hot moments because I learnt to read and I could make blues sound musically sound. You know what I mean by that?

Yeah.

Musically sound, otherwise, it was legitimate music.

Yeah? Some of your records, including Di Dat Dum Dum, and other ones, have a bit of a rockabilly country-western kind of feel to them. Is that the sort of music that you enjoy?

Do you enjoy rockabilly music and country, things like that?

Well, at the time, I didn't know I was doing rockabilly, but it turns out that after 29 years you can re-record all your records, and you can publish the music if no one published the music, if the publisher that had the music resigned; the music republished it. You can republish it as an artist, and they belong to your company. So I did that with all of my songs when I put them on my label. My label is Black Gold Records. When I put them on Black Gold, I republished them. I recopyrighted them because it's after 28 years. The 29th year you can republish your albums, and whatever, if you strategically go through it, and find out what songs has been published or recopyrighted.

Some of the songs that I recorded back then was never published. You know what I'm saying? So I republished them, and that's when I added Black Gal. I got Black Gal from... Black Gal was a song by... I can't think of it... I can't think of his name, but he was a big folk artist. He did Irene, Irene.

Are you talking about Josh White or Leadbelly?

Leadbelly. That was a Leadbelly song. Well, some of Leadbelly's songs have never been published after 29 years, so I put that one on my album sheet.

Can I ask you a question? My Isabella or Isabella, did you write that song? And if so, how did you write it?

Isabella came to me by Joe Tenaro when he was my manager. He was my manager when I did the RCA Victor thing. He was the Skippy Is A Sissy. So Isabella came by way of him. He found it somewhere. I didn't write it. He might have wrote it. I believe a guy called Roy Tan recorded it and wrote it. I've got that record by Roy Tan. It's the same song, but it's obviously very different.

Roy Tan, that's a Roy Tan song. You're right. That's [inaudible]. Like I said, if you're copyrighted, and you get to 29 years, and somebody happened to be copyrighted something, it's going to go to the world like a retired/unretired song, and anybody can claim it. That's what I did with some of those songs. I claimed them.

One song that you recorded, which I noticed the copyright... Well, the composer is Big Boy Crudup, was Worried About Your Baby, which is pretty much a cover of That's All Right. Isn't it?

That's right. Big Boy Crudup did that song, but like I say, when I went over years later, Big Boy Crudup he wasn't even copyrighted any of his songs back in that time. Most of those artists didn't copyright them. Who's going to get it? They'd pull it into a pool, and pay it out to whomever. I claimed it.

Elvis covered that, too.

Yeah. That's right.

I was playing that on the show yesterday, and I could hear Mickey Guitar Baker play on that one as well, I'm pretty sure. That's right. Mickey was on everybody's albums back then. He was the main person until he went to Europe to stay.

Yeah. Wasn't he just one of the most incredible guitarists? How did you rate Mickey Baker up there with all the great guitarists?

I think he was one of the greatest. He recorded on every type of record you can think of, from jazz to blues, to rock and roll, to rockabilly, country and western. He was just a phenomenal learned... He was a learned guitar player, who made use of his talent backing up people, and then until he decided to do one his self [inaudible] Mickey [inaudible], and then he had his own career for a while.

Did you play guitar on that at all or did you just put the guitar down and let Mickey do it?

No. I played on it, but I didn't play the parts that Mickey played. I played the solo. I played other parts of the background, but I mostly became very visible because Mickey he couldn't play my style of solos. He played, but he had to respect what I did because it was me. It was my session. You know?

How did you come to be signed up to Deluxe Records?

Well, that was an interesting scenario. We was over there for the first time was the [inaudible]. I can't think of his name. I can see his face now, but he was outstanding. He was given me as an artist to record for the first time for Deluxe, and he had just started to write for Deluxe. He was more of a jazz-type writer, but he needed money so he was writing some rock and roll, and whatever he could write.

On that first session, he did the arrangement on Stolen Moments, stolen moments, [inaudible], only leads to a broken heart. That one. He did that and he did the one we're talking about. What's that one?

We were talking... Well, we were talking about Isabella, You're Right, I'm Left, Gainesville.

Yeah, but he didn't do all of those, but he did-

Stolen Moments was the B side of You're Right, I'm Left, so maybe it's that one.

Yeah. You're Right, I'm Left that's an interesting tune. It was the saxophone player that had that song. I can't think of his name, though, but he was big. Al something?

Al? Big Al Sears.

Big Al Sears. I'll tell you. You're right on it. You're right on it. I wonder how you got on top of this like that.

Did you ever play on a record with Bobby Blue Bland?

I played on his first hits.

Do you remember the specific songs?

Yeah. You'll have to name some of his first songs.

You're talking about when he was on Duke Records, right?

Yeah. See? Don Robey owns Peacock Records, and Duke Peacock, there was another one. It's where I was raised up, in Houston, Texas. It was the only record company down there.

Yeah? Right. So if we go year by year, so you're saying the 1950s you recorded with him, right?

Yeah, when he first came out of the Army.

So like I Woke Up Screaming?

That's the one. Ooo-we-baby, I had a real bad dream last night. Yeah. I played on that one. I played-

Sorry. Keep going. Yep?

I played on his first hits because I was in Houston, and could read a little music, and Joe Scott knew it. Joe Scott was the arranger for Bobby Blue Bland, and all of the artists on Duke Records. Do you get it?

Yeah. I'd love to get a list of you, the songs that you said that you played off with Bobby Blue Bland. Yeah. I've heard great ones, like I Learned My Lesson, Farther Up The Road, You Got Bad Intentions, Bobby's Blues-

I didn't play on Further Up The Road. I played on Bad Intentions.

That's with Bill Harvey's Band, it says.

Yeah, but Bill Harvey had to have whatever guitar player. They didn't want it. He might have had some great... I know he did, some great guitarists with his band, but when they went into the studio, they get people that made records with Bobby that was successful. Well, he had some great guitarists. He had Wayne Bennett played on some of his records as well.

Oh, Wayne was incredible. He played on that powerful version of Stormy Monday.

Just trying to think of the other guitarists that Bobby Bland had with him. Clarence Holloman.

Clarence Holloman taught me the first chord on guitar. He taught me that actual. I rode all the way over to his house, and he was waiting for me, but I put my amp, that same amp and guitar that my mother told me not to buy, I put it in my paper... I had a paper route. I put it in my paper, and wrote Baskin on my bicycle. Amp on one side, the guitar on the other, and I rode over to his house. When I got there, he said... I'm walking up to his house with the guitar. He said, "Bring them in and set them right there, and let's go play some ball." He wanted to play ball, so I didn't say nothing. [inaudible] guitar. So he wanted to play ball, and he had a huge dog. Like a Doberman. No. It was a Great Dane.

This huge dog came up. He said, "Oh, man, don't be afraid of my dog." He said, "Just don't move." So all the way over to his house to stand in front of a dog, and be told not to move. I'm thinking about guitar, and he's controlling my mind with a dog. [inaudible] was unique. Finally, I said, "Enough of this." I said, "Clarence, I got to go. I got to go take care of some business with paper route." He said, "Oh, yeah. Let me show you a chord." He showed me a B-flat chord with two fingers in the key of B-flat on the third, and fifth, and first. No, the third, and fifth, and tonic of the chord in B-flat. He said, "I'll see you."

That was the way it went, but that chord turned out to be the most important one for all the blues songs I played. You can do it in any key, and you can play a lot of blues with it, but we stayed friends until the end of his life because Clarence had a great brother named Sweets Harmon who played piano, and he sang like Charles Brown, and that's what made Clarence [inaudible] guitar player. He was interesting because he could play exactly like some of those guitarists that played with Charles Brown. I can't think of their names, though, but if you called-

Are you talking about Johnny Moore?

Johnny Moore did some stuff with Charles, but there was one other one.

They played with Charles Brown? There was an Oscar something as well.

Yeah. I remember him, but there was one that... I can't think of his name, but I can see his face. That's all right. It'll come to you. There were some great musicians that came along at that time. Like the first time I met Wayne Bennett, he was playing with Amos Milburn. He was playing with who?

Amos Milburn. Do you remember Amos Milburn?

Of course, Good, Good Whiskey, and all that stuff.

That's right. Yeah. That was great times for great musicians. As a matter of fact, I asked my mama could I bring Wayne to our house for dinner on Sunday, so I could just get around him.

Yeah, the great Wayne Bennett. Clarence Harmon I think went and married Carol Fran, who was a singer in the... What do they call it? Like on the border between Louisiana and Texas, the Gulf Port or whatever it is.

Yeah. That's right.

Yeah, they were a couple that did some touring together by way of festivals in Phoenix, Arizona, another part of Arizona, but Clarence and his wife whenever I would see them in Houston, they was like inseparable, and she was with him when he passed away.

When did you move to Los Angeles, and why did that happen?

Well, I had a sister out here, and I was doing papers, and playing guitar, and doing my show, and my sister lived out here said I could come out and live with her, and go to high school out here. That's what I did.

There were a lot of guitarists in L.A. at the time, especially from Texas. You had Peewee Crayton, and Johnny Guitar Watson, and I'm trying to think. He played with James Brown. Oh, my God. Anyway, T-bone, obviously, was living in Los Angeles. Can you describe the Central Avenue scene in the 1950s?

Well, it was kind of the end of it when I got out here, from what it was when it was at its peak, and so when it was at it peak, that's some great stories.

There's some great stories, like Nat King Cole, who was over here playing. He wasn't over here. I say over here because I still live on the side of town where the blacks; I bought a home here. I bought it four years ago. Central Avenue was the central located place on the street, and I can't think of all the hotels, but I got a book with all that information on it.

No worries. What was I going to say? There's a song that you and Chuck Willis appeared to have co-written for a guy called Joe Benson called Rock'N'Roll Jungle. Do you remember writing that?

What are you calling a jungle?

It's called Rock'N'Roll Jungle for Joe Benson.

Yeah, Joe Benson was an artist that I managed because I thought he was a great singer, and we put that song, and more together for him to do a session. That's all it turned out to be, a session. He didn't luck out and become a hit. Back in those days, if you didn't make a hit on the first session, you just about didn't get a second one.

If you had to reel off your favorite four records, what would they be?

Records that I recorded?

Records that you made.

Oh, boy. That's hard.

Well, let me ask you about one of them, which I'm not sure if it was even released at the time, but people love it now. It's a record called Alabama Sue.

Yeah. That was a song that was never released. Chuck Willis wrote that song, but that session was never released until later.

It's a great track.

I know Alabama, Alabama Sue. Yeah. That's a great one. I wished they had released that, and the other one that was on the flip side of that. You know which one I'm talking-

Well, if it wasn't released, I wasn't sure what the other side would be. Let's have a look. No. I'm not sure what that'd be. All My Life, maybe? No? No.

That was done on RCA Victor. No. It was done on Groove where I did the Groove session that turned out to be one session with Skippy Is A Sissy for RCA Victor.

I'll tell you what. Was the record Hoodoo?

That's it. You're smart. That's it.

That wasn't released either?

No, but it was sold to a company in Europe, in Germany I think, and that company released those records all those years later, and those records you can Google them, Hoodoo, and the other one-

Alabama Sue?

Alabama Sue, on YouTube. Some of the best records I ever made never got released.

What was Baton Rouge like in the 1950s?

Back in those times, it was completely different to the way things are now coz you had in baton rouge here you had a lot of little cafes and little clubs and every night they had them little bands- Lightnin’ Slim over here, Slim Harpo over here. People paying fifty cents to come in and everywhere you looked they had a band playing somewhere – four pieces, two pieces and Boogie Jake and all of ‘em.

And it was a time when people were listening – they wasn’t really into tv like they are now. You know if you had a television then you had to have a tall antenna on your house. To get the sound. They made people buy that old, tall aerial, whatever, you know? So everybody who had a TV had a tall aerial on their house. And it was a psychological thing because you know people, big shot has an aerial on his house, he has a television. But, back in that time people were getting out at night, going out and dancin’ at clubs and stuff.

Little-bitty small clubs. Wouldn’t charge over a dollar. Some didn’t charge nothin’. Go in free. The only bad thing about is somebody might start fightin’ and you better get out of there you know? But, that’s the way it was back there when I first came back to baton rouge. I had a record out on Hollywood Records. I was in San Fransisco when I got into service. And I started singin’ in San Fransisco. I used to sing in a church before the service.

I was in the service. In the Air Force. But, when I got out of the air force, I stayed in San Fransisco. I had my godfather out there and I stayed out there. And I started singing, messin’ around, drinkin’ and doing everything. And I got on this talent show with KSM radio out of San Francisco.

They had a talent show one night back at the Ellis Theatre and some of my friends had heard me singin’ so they want me to go on the show. I got on. Fatso Berry was the disc-jockey who was in charge of this show. Etta James, I know you heard of Etta James, she was on the show. Johnny Matthis. Etta was 17 there. Sugar Pie De Santo. There was a bunch of ‘em on there! At the Ellis. But, I won first prize the night I was on. And that gave me a little name in ‘frisco. And from there I made my first record with Hollwood Records out of Los Angeles. John Dolphin.

So that started me on this blues career. And I was singin’ a blues number when I won. I sung a number called 'Long About Midnight' listen by Roy Brown. And he was a great artist. He was one of my inspirations. God, when I first saw him, I knew then I wanted to sing the blues you know? So that’s what really started me on singin’ the blues and that’s how I got involved in singin’ the blues and been out here so long you know? Singin’.

You say you recorded for John Dolphin in Hollywood, how did you come to settle in South Louisiana?

Well see I stayed out in San Francisco. I was young, you know, out there and runnin’ wild and all kinds of stuff. Drinkin’ you know. On my own. And so I got arrested and man, look. I got sixty days. I did sixty days in jail. And when I got out I said I’m going home I’m comin’ back to Louisana. So I came back to baton rouge. I had a record out and very few people round here had records out you know. And I got back here and I met a guy name Shaw. Shaw was a booking agent. He used to book Louis Armstrong. So I met him and he decided he want to book me on the road. I went out doing the chitlin’ circuit. Doin’ some dates. I had my record out and everything. Started singing and I went back to school.

I went to Leland College. But, I was too late. I went there on a scholarship coz I played football when I was at school. But that blues and music was into my soul you know?

I stayed up there about couple of minds then I came on back out here. I heard about J.D. Miller. Cat told me about him. So I went on down to Crowley and met him and I recorded a record for him, ‘tomorrow’ that was the first record I recorded with him. And that started me doin a little playin’ around and stuff.

And after that you know I got married. Playin’ and workin’, playin’ and workin’ you know stuff like that. Playin’ around a lot of little clubs. Coz everybody you know, Silas Hogan, Guitar Kelly, whispering smith all of them was here in Baton Rouge. Boogie Jake, Raful Neal. Everybody was playin’ you know. Band over here. Band over there. Band everywhere. Everywhere you look, every night they had something goin’ on. Oh man people loved the blues. They was into nothin’ but the blues at that time.

Then the radio stations didn’t come to baton rouge ‘til around that time I come back here. They had the XOK chain, WXOK. Coz’ they had a little station here, a white station, but, they had a half an hour they would play blues you know. Didn’t have a real station until WXOK came and they started playing blues, rhythm and blues stuff like that you know. So that’s how I got in touch with J.D. Miller and I started going down there and recording. Whispering Smith and Slim Harpo and all them blues guys here from Louisiana started recording for him.

What year was that first record?

‘The Hoodoo Party’ I cut that in, that was my biggest record it been all over the world. 'Hoodoo Party' listen is the biggest records I ever made. It’s still sellin’. I cut that in ’61 with J.D. Miller. I wrote that tune and arranged everything. Katie Webster played piano. There’s some good musicians on it.

‘The Hoodoo Party’ represents Louisiana music. Coz it’s in the style of Lousiana. Piano style. I’m not playing it, I let Katie play it, but, I play that style. Longhair and all them, Fats Domino have a style similar to my style. But, that particular song is played during carnival time all over Louisiana. Every year it gets bigger and bigger all over the world. But, that the song that represent Louisiana swamp music. Hoodoo Party.

Tell me about the circumstances in which you wrote that song? How did it come to you?

I was married and me and my wife we had, I think we had, about five, four or five children and I wrote a whole lot of songs. That’s not the first. A lot of stuff I write you know. But, that tune just came to me. Coz I did a tune (sings) “my baby’s got it, she’s got what it takes” its on here. (sings) “she got a heart, made of gold, there’s movement down in my soul.” So 'The Hoodoo Party' I had (sings) “well the Hoodoo King and the Hoodoo Queen gave a little party down in new orleans. Heard a woman scream and I turned around. Cadillac Slim just rolled in town. Boogie chillun” go into the boogie you know? And it just caught on.

People just liked that kind of thing about New Orleans. I’m talking about New Orleans in the song. People just liked it. Its getting very popular. I think eventually somebody big, you know one of them big, big guys might record it you know, but, its been on a five or six little small guys have cut it. But ain’t had nobody big like the rolling stones or somebody big like that hit it. Once they hit it its zoomin’ you know. But, its actually a Louisiana-paced type song.

I wrote it and sung it, but, I didn’t get the money I was supposed to get because J.D. Miller put another guy’s name on there ‘Thomas and Dees’. There ain’t supposed to be anybody’s name on there but ‘E. Thomas’. That’s my name. I wrote the song and arranged it. But, they stole a lot of stuff from guys back there you know? They just fucked over people man. A lot of guys I know couldn’t read and write. Shit they ain’t never got no money. But, its like you see. But this is my new one here. This cd here was released over in Switzerland. By a company. And the guy never did give me no money. It’s a rat race out here you know? See I sell a lot of my stuff right here. T-shirts, tickets. I sell all my stuff right here.

is it as bad as the old days?

Well the old guys they didn’t know. They didn’t know about no publishing. Writer’s rights. They didn’t know nothin’ man. And they got beat. It’s a good thing they didn’t know they go beat you see?

But, my son is Chris Thomas-King he’s over on a tour right now. That’s him right there. Here’s over on a tour right now with buddy guy and them right now. Here’s over there touring tonight over in Europe. And I he know everything about the business. I taught him everything. He make his own records at his own studio. Write his own stuff. Produce his own records and shit. I taught him everything you know. I didn’t get it, but, he gonna get it coz he ain’t no dummy.

In my case now you know, being a business man, a radio show and my own thing, I play my own records. They wouldn’t play my records a long time ago, once every now and then. The guys don’t play your records it hurts you. See but god fix it where I play my own records. Play any records I wanna play. Number one show in Baton Rouge. Nothin’ but the blues.

I play the real shit man. Lightnin’ Slim and all of ‘em. Muddy Waters. Buddy Guy used to play with me. He was playin’ with me the night he left Baton Rouge to go to Chicago. But, you know he got big. He got that big money and he got the big head you know so he don’t know me now. He got big you know. But, I don’t give a damn how big you might money you get.

Paul Getty was one of the richest men in the world. Paul Getty was the one that backed the Beatles, Paul Getty stayed in an airplane in the air. He didn’t even stay on the ground. He stayed in the air all the time. They had to take big transports and then put gas in the plane. He didn’t come down. But, he had more money than anybody in the world. But, when he died he came down and they buried him and I didn’t see no armoured car out there with the money, in the graveyard.

So I don’t care how much money you get you know it don’t make no difference. You ain’t gonna take it away with you. You can’t eat it. Shit, now I eat just about as much as anybody else. Anything I want to eat I can get it. You know what I mean? I can buy it.

But, anyway, coming back down to earth. I’ve helped a lot of young guys, Tab Benoit, Chris Thomas, Troy Turner they all come under me. That’s my thing. So I help the young guys try to get a chance to come in and play and help them you know as far as learnin’ the thing and play and shit. And it’s been rewarding coz they just put me in the hall of fame, the Louisana Hall Of Fame. About three weeks ago I went over there and was inducted into the hall of fame. Plus I won an ambassador award for a thousand dollars. And I also won the fellowship award for five thousand dollars in the state of Lousiana. So my work hasn’t been unnoticed.

I’m going to throw some names at you and I want you to tell me what comes to mind when you hear them. Firstly, Jay Miller.

Jay Miller was a producer. He gave me a chance to make some records. I wouldn't be what I am today if it hadn’t been for jay miller, but, I didn’t really get what I should have gotten. But, what I got was better than nothing. I wouldn’t have the name I have now if I hadn’t a got with jay miller and been all over the world behind the records even though it taught me a lesson. You know? So I don’t go around blaspheming him and talking about him you know.

He gave me an opportunity to make some records and he thought I was a hell of a singer and he liked my voice. And he liked the songs I wrote. I don’t have anything against him. I might say something but that the way. I should have got the writer’s rights on all the songs I wrote that’s only thing wasn’t right you know. But, when it all come down, I wouldn’t be sittin’ here tonight if it hadn’t been for Jay Miller.

Why do you think so much classic swamp blues came out of that studio in little ol Crowley, Louisiana?

Jay Miller was an innovator and he kept up with the sound. And he would try different things but he was really a blues producer. I was doing some stuff that really. I’m not the kind of artist that sings one groove and stay there. I’m doing a whole lot of different grooves. Like the guy in Dublin Ireland tell me, “Tabby have you found your niche yet?” He says “coz may you been so many different styles”. A lot of people don’t realise how many different styles.

Tell us about the artist Lightnin’ Slim

Lightnin’ Slim was a guy just the way he talked that’s the way he sung. He knew me. Coz he had a policeman was managing him and the policeman come over to my house to get me and Lightnin’ to make some dates together but I wasn’t doin’ the type of thing Lightnin’ was doing. Lightnin’ was playin’ the guitar and I was doin’ some other kind of shit like Roy Brown was doin’. With the horns and shit. And I wasn’t in his groove at the time. So that’s why I didn’t go on those dates with him you see?

But, my record was hot and this guy was going to book me and Lightnin’ together. But, I didn’t go because I’m not into that groove. The guy came to get me. Willie Dixon came to get me to Chicago, but, I couldn’t go because I had a lot of children. I had seven children. Five girls and two boys. And my children come before anything you know. Coz if it wasn’t for me that wouldn’t be here. So I stayed home and I’ve been overseas several times.

Slim Harpo.

Slim Harpo was a friend of mine and he was a harmonica player and he had a little group. He used to get out and play like everybody else. But, he made records and some people used to say about him “that Slim Harpo, he sang through his nose, sang through his nose”. And people talk about ya you know. And people used to talk about slim. See the records slim made sold millions, but, he told me “Tabby, sing out. Stop singing like you’ve been singing. Let yourself go.” Johnny Adams told me, “Tabby, why don’t you sing out?” I used to sing out and I stopped singing. What the hell me singing hard, I wasn’t makin’ nothin’ you know? So eventually I went back to start singing in my real style. I started singing like I used to sing.

But, Lightnin’ Slim and Slim Harpo all them guys was just everyday people. They were just regular guys.

That Lightnin’ Slim, everywhere he played at them little women be behind him everywhere he went. Yeah they were behind him man. He had his own little crowd. Just like you hear them records, that’s the way he sounded out there in the club. Guitar, drum, sometime he have a bass, sometime he have a harmonica.

He played them little cafes where you go in free at man. Motherfuckers start fightin’, you had to run. I was in a place one night, I was lookin’ at Lightnin’, me and um, the boy out of New Orleans, Huey Smith and The Clowns. You heard of Huey Smith? Me and Huey was together one night. We went down there one Sunday night and man we was in there, Lightnin’ was playin’, had a guy he was dancin’ man. And this building where was was they had licence plates outside, raggedy, raggedy-ass building. And Big Maybelle whatever her name, she was runnin’ the band, Lightnin’ was sittin’ back there playing and he did one of them old jump numbers and the guy was dancin’, another guy cut at him like that (demonstrates) with a knife or razor. The guy fell out like that. I thought the guy was dead. Fell out. Man, I got up, I ran out of there man. The guy he fell and he fainted. Man, people were gettin’ out of that goddamn place like gravy on rice. Sometimes he’d playing, mutherfuckers start shootin’ man. I’m serous. That’s the kind of crowd he had. Coz’ they didn’t charge to come in. Anybody could come in there you see. And man you be dancin’ and havin’ a good time and somebody starts arguin’ and next thing “bam!, bam!” Everybody gone. Jump all in the toilet man. Women out in the street “aargh!” Man you ain’t never saw nothin’ like it. That’s the kind of crowd he had followin’ him.

And the people loved him, love him man. Slim too man. But, certain elements in the city, they never did give those guys any respect. They never did let them play in big halls and temples where they brought other bands at. Horns and stuff, they wouldn’t’ let ‘em play. They had to play them little small funky dives, little clubs you know. That’s the way it was in Slim Harpo’s time. On his last album he cut, I wrote the last two tunes, I went to Nashville, I wrote to songs for him, (sic) 'I’m Sorry Baby' listen and 'Baby She’s Got It' listen. But now, they wouldn’t give me the writer’s rights. They wouldn’t’ give it and slim argued with the guy over there at excello, he argues with him “man, we oughta give it, we’re going to need him, he’s a good writer”. The motherfucker wouldn’t give me the writer’s rights. I had a tune ‘my baby’s got it’ (sings) “my baby’s got it”. Then I wrote a tune for him, “my baby, she’s got it” you know. I wrote that, the motherfucker wouldn’t even give me the writer’s rights.

Was that Ernie Young?

No, not Ernie Young. Um, the other guy, he had took over Excello at the time. I can’t recall his name right now. But that motherfucker wouldn’t even give it to me. Here was the thing though, motherfuckers, they want your shit, but, they don’t want to pay you. Same guys they paid some of ‘em, some they wouldn’t pay.

Motherfuckers wouldn’t pay me. But, like I say, it made a better person out of me ‘coz I was able to take it and keep on truckin’ you know what I mean? Now I go out and press my own records. I’ve got my own label. I got the money to press them with. I ain’t got to ask nobody for nothin’. I got the money. But, I didn’t have shit at the time. I got their hustle you know. And I could’ve had if somebody had gave me what I was justly deserved. You see what I’m sayin’?

But, I still don’t have nothin’ against Jay Miller. I didn’t get the money I was supposed to get. That had 65 payouts from b.m.i. On ‘The Hoodoo Party’. I saw the statement when they sent it to me. I’m with B.M.I. myself. One of these days, I gonna get me a lawyer, get him to look up see how much it was paid out on the ‘hoodoo party’ from the time it was released. I’m gonna find out.

I want to mention one more artist to you and one more song. One artist, Silas Hogan.

Silas was like a father to me. I didn’t have a father. I took him to Amsterdam, Holland with me and man, shit, he was, oh man, he was a nice guy. He was quiet. And he wore steel hat all the time, when he retired from standard oil. Some of his music that he do, I do some of his music now, he was doin’ that different type, that old thing. A lot of cats can’t play that shit, but, I do it on some of my records.

He never had no problems, never had a cross word. He played there with me. I played at Smithsonian Institute up there in Washington, D.C. Took him up there with us. I recorded something for him, put it on my label too.

But, Silas was ok man. And I went to his funeral when he died and he had a lot of hogs. I tried to buy one. Silas wouldn’t seel me that hog. He must have knew I had high blood pressure. I didn’t even know I had high blood pressure. And, shit, Silas, he had a bunch of hogs. I’d see him up there at the fruit stand gettin’ slop and shit for his hogs. He say “ I say “man when you goin’ to sell me the hog Silas?”. “I’m gonna get it ready for you, I’m gonna let you know”. He never sent me that. He knew I had high blood pressure, you see.

And anyway, one night, I’m going to tell you this. Silas came to the blues box, the old blues box. Summertime, and guys in there playin’, people just walkin’ in. Black and white. Wasn’t just black or just black or white, college students, people from everywhere. So Silas had an old truck, pickup truck and on the back of the truck he had two of them 500 gallon cans that he put the slop in. Old truck was runnin’, one side was like this (demonstrates lop-sided). Dirty, nasty, raggedy everything. So Silas had brought the old truck down there and you had to tie the wires to start it so we was all in there jammin’ that night man and Silas was in there with is. Silas, he had a women. He was goin’ with some womans and she used to drink a lot of beer. She’d drink big Millers man. She’d drink three or four of them and pee all night. She was his girlfriend. Everyone was havin’ fun. So anyway, we got ready about 11.30, 12 o’clock on a Wednesday night. So Silas says “well I better get on up the road, I got to get up early in the morning and feed them hogs”. I said “alright Si, i’ll check you later man”. Silas went outside, about five minutes he come back he said “man somebody done stole my truck”. Some motherfucker stole the truck (laughs) with all the slop in the cans back there ridin’ on one side, stole it.

He was a nice gentleman. His son still play. His son, I don’t think he been here yet, but, he used to come to the other club all the time. Son play everything. Silas, I recorded him, I took him overseas and he played at the blues box ‘till he died. Guitar Kelly was playin’ with him, but, Guitar Kelly he got old now.

Kelly can’t play no more man, after he got shot he can’t play. Mess around, but, he can’t play. He and Silas played together all the time. He’d sing and Silas back him up. And then Silas sing and he back Silas up. Anyway man it was something that old blues box. Henry Gray all of ‘em used to hang there.

Whispering Smith, the greatest harmonica player I ever heard in my life. Ain’t never had but one or two little harmonicas. He played on my record ‘twenty-five years with the blues’. Every song he got playin’ a different solo. Whispering Smith. You ain’t never heard of him. But, he died man. Oh man. Called him “Mose”. Jay Miller told me when I went to make that record, that album, said “who you gonna bring down here on harmonica Tabby?”. I said “I’m gonna have Raful Neal on harmonica”. He said “bring Mose” (Whispering Smith). And we went down there on the Saturday and Sunday and did the album. Four tunes one day and five the next day. ‘Twenty-Five Years With The Blues’.

I want to mention one more song to you. Maybe your second biggest record ‘Popeye Train’.

'Popeye Train' listen was big. But, the biggest record that I think I’m gonna have is gonna be ‘I Love Big Fat Women’. Its gonna be on the new cd coming out. And ‘Louisiana Women’ that’s on the new cd coming out. Man every time I sing ‘I Love Big Fat Women’ they be on the floor like this. Everywhere I go, I mean everywhere.

I don't want to be rude straight up, but Wikipedia doesn't have your birthday. Is that deliberate? Have you concealed that, or they just haven't done their research?

I guess hadn't done their research. I was born May 10th, 1939.

There you go. 1939. You grew up in Georgia, is that correct?

Yes.

Tell us about where you grew up and what it was like.

Well, I'm from a little town called Thomaston, Georgia. It's about 44 miles west of Macon, Georgia, and about 70 miles south of Atlanta. It's right in the center of Georgia ... just a little town, and I grew up there. And my daddy worked in a cotton mill, and I did various odd jobs around there.

Yeah. The community you grew up in, was it mainly a white community, mainly black community, or mix of both?

I grew up out in the country, in a very small neighborhood, and it was primarily all white.

Was that in there amongst the Georgia pines? Because, I once visited a town called Dry Branch, Georgia, which was the most amazing setting I've ever seen, just right there in the forest.

It was like that. We was out in the country, and of course, anywhere in Georgia you got Georgia pines, you know.

Yeah. The music thing ... How early were you, when you realized that you appreciated music, perhaps more than others?

Well, I wound up moving to Macon, and that's where my singing career really got started off. A lot of people from my area ... In fact, Logtown, Georgia is where Little Richard's from, and that's 14 miles from my hometown. And then there was, Otis Redding is out of Georgia, Dawson, Georgia, and James Brown from Augusta, Georgia, and Little Richard's from Logtown, and Otis is ... There's several singers from around there. I don't know why. There's not a lot of sing around there, but we all like music.

What sort of music would you see live, growing up around Macon and that area?

Well, it was mostly country western music. I met Otis when he was singing with a group called Johnny Jenkins and The Pinetoppers, out of a club in Gray, Georgia, and he was a singer with that band. That's where I met Otis.

Johnny Jenkins was the guitarist in the band, wasn't he?

Yes. Johnny "Guitar" Jenkins.

Tell me, what sort of material was Otis Redding building in those days with Johnny Jenkins?

Well he was singing things like ... Oh, I don't know, just different kinds of blues songs that was current back then. There was no R&B. Basically, that group had come out of that area created R&B, which was basically just a black rock and roll. Soul music, or funk, that was James Brown's thing. He didn't really do R&B, he did funk music. But Otis, he did R&B.

As far as I know, Otis' first hit was a song called "Mr. Pitiful" and it was one of the first songs ever, then, to have horns in it. And it came off good and it was a big song for him. He wrote a song called "These Arms Are Mine" and we were friends, so I published it at Cochran Music Company, and course none of us had no money back then, and I needed a reverb system to run my microphone through, and it cost $149, so I sold Cochran Music, "These Arms Are Mine" for $149. Boy, don't I wish I hadn't of done that.

You sold it to Phil Walden, didn't you? Wasn't that Otis' manager at the time?

Yes. Yep. [inaudible 00:04:57] He was going to college, and his daddy owned a clothing store there in town, and he started managing Otis and he did a good job with him.

Can you remember the first time you met Otis Redding?

Yeah, the first time was at that club I was talking about when he was singing with Johnny "Guitar" Jenkins and The Pinetoppers. He was in Gray, Georgia. I can't remember the name of the club right now, but that was the first time I met him, was there.

Were you already singing by that time?

Yeah, I was singing but mostly then we were just doing rock and roll, and I really liked the way the blues sounded, and that's when I started trying to do blues.

And before that, you were doing kind of like, rockabilly material, "rock and roll" as you call it. And-

[inaudible 00:06:03]

A great version of "Liza Jane" that you did.

Yeah, originally that was recorded by Dale Hawkins, "Liza Jane".

[crosstalk 00:06:16] had "Suzie Q" as well, and I've noticed that he's credited as the arranger on that song. So, was he present at the session, was he?

Who is that?

Dale Hawkins.

No, but I took the song and arranged it the way it was, and he took it and recorded ... He got a good hit on it.

Did any of those early records, "Cindy Marie", "Last Kiss", any of those sell at all?

Well, around Georgia, just locally. "Last Kiss" that I wrote, I recorded that for a company out of Valdosta, Georgia named Gala Records. And we just went around Georgia doing radio station interviews, and I would take some of those records in the trunk of my car, so if I was going to do a radio interview, I would go to a record shop in that town, and they would buy a few of them. And we kept doing that until "Last Kiss" got up on the charts in Georgia, this is in Georgia alone. Then I recorded that for King records, and they put it out and a guy in Odessa, Texas was recording an album at the time, and on the way to the studio every day, he would hear that song. And I guess that was probably the only place it was playing in. And he liked it so he went in the studio and did an exact copy of it, arrangement and all, and his name was J. Frank Wilson, out of a group called The Cavaliers, and it went to number one.

He didn't really change your version very much, did he?

No, he didn't change it at all hardly.

Can you tell us the story behind the writing of that song?

Well, I lived on the strip of Highway 1941, just south of Thomaston, Georgia, and there was sort of two-lane paved road. It was a main road then, they didn't have four-lane roads then. And there was a lot of accidents, a lot of people killed on that road so I was gonna write a song about that. And the Sam Cooke-type thing, I liked Sam Cooke then. And so I wrote that song about car wrecks there on that highway. That's where that came from.

The story is that you ended up playing with Otis Redding. Is that true? Can you talk about that?

Well, Otis, we become good friends. He would come to the house on Sunday, out in the country, and we sat and played guitar and would sing together. He sung country music really well then, too. 'Course, there wasn't no R&B. It was just rock and roll, and blues, and country. So, yeah, and I say when he got started with his band, I sung with him then a little bit but we mostly had our own bands, doing our own thing. We just remained good friends. In fact, I was with Otis two weeks before he got killed. He had had throat surgery. I'd had it twice, and he couldn't sing for four weeks, and he was gonna come to Miami and stay a weekend with me and my wife down here, while he was resting.

And he got a call from a TV show up in Cleveland we all did called "Upbeat", which is like a Dick Clark-type show, and he went up there to do that. He was supposed to leave that weekend. He went up there to do that and they talked him into going to Madison, Wisconsin while he was already up there, and doing a gig that would be the first gig him back singing after he had gone off resting his voice from surgery.

And his pilot really messed up, caused that accident. 'Cause, you know, every time a pilot lands, before he takes off again, he's supposed to put all his instruments back on zero, and then reset them for elevation, altitude, everything else before you take off, and he didn't reset any of those ... They parked that night, he didn't reset any of those instruments, and got up, and flew to Wisconsin. So, they were all set wrong for his altitude and [inaudible 00:11:04] and everything, and he actually flew into that lake. He didn't know he was that low. So, that's what caused Otis to be killed.

I'd never heard that story before. That's fascinating.

Yeah, he actually flew into that lake. He killed everybody on the plane except one of the Bar-Kays, which was the name of Otis' band. He was sitting by the window, and when the wing hit the water, it pulled that wing off, and threw him out in the lake, and he was the only one that lived.

Yeah, that was Ben Cauley, right?

Huh?

Ben Cauley was his name and he went on to continue the Bar-Kays after that.

Yep, yep, and Otis went down with the airplane. He was strapped in the co-pilot seat and he went down with it.

You played on Otis Redding's ... I think it's his first record, isn't it? It's "Shout Bamalama".

It's "Shout Bamalama" and "Fat Gal" was the other side. "Fat Gal" was a song Little Richard gave him, 'cause Otis did a lot of Little Richard stuff back then. And "Shout Bamalama" I had published, and he recorded that, and it was a good record for him.

Is it true you played bass on the session?

Yes, I did. I played bass on that and on the other side, "Fat Gal".

Do you remember if that was recorded?

I think it was recorded in University of Georgia recording studios in Athens, Georgia.

Yeah. Now, talk about your first recordings with King, how did you get to know Syd Nathan, how did you get signed for King? What's the whole story there?

The whole what?

The whole story of how you arrived at King Records.

Well, I was recording and I did a lot of James Brown stuff, and James Brown's on King Records, and Syd Nathan, who's the president of King Records signed me because my manager knew him, so he signed me and it really wasn't a good label for me 'cause they did all R&B and soul and I was just doing straight rock and roll at the time. And I recorded "Last Kiss" ... As I said, it just didn't do anything except for this one town in Texas, and J. Frank Wilson records it, and within a few weeks, it was number two in the nation, I think. And I went into Syd Nathan's office and I said, "Syd, why didn't my record of 'Last Kiss' sell any records?" He said, "'Cause it wasn't no good." I said, "Then tell me, why is it number two in Billboard this week?" And I laid a Billboard on his desk and he didn't say no more.

You recorded at least five singles for Syd Nathan, including one of your better-known early songs, "The Coo". Tell me about that song.

Well, I liked Bill Doggett. He was an instrumentalist back then, played the organ, and Bill Doggett had a song called "Honky Tonk", and I liked that lick, so I took that lick and put it onto the song I wrote, called "The Coo". And it got banned in most radio station, they wouldn't play it. But it got played in a few and did pretty good.

You also had a record on King that I heard recently, called "Mr. Lonely", that is a beautiful recording.

"Mr. Lonely" ... No, I don't.

It's a ballad in Thee Midniter's style, like a low rider-type ballad. Maybe something like Eddie and [inaudible 00:15:33] going for yourself or one of those ones.

Like Hank Ballard & The Midnighters?

No, no, Mexican-American group out of L.A., called "Thee Midniters" with two "E"s. Anyway, it's a sentimental ballad with big horns. It's a really nice tune.

Yeah. I don't remember a lot about that. That was a lot of years ago and I recorded a lot of things, so some of them I don't even remember. I see them in my catalog, in Billboards, or BMI, and some of them are so long ago I don't even remember. A couple songs I wrote for a girl singer named Jean Kiff. That may be one you're talking about.

Well I did find the song you wrote when you were at King for a lady called Alice [inaudible 00:17:28]. Do you remember that?

Carl What?

Alice [inaudible 00:17:21]. It's "The Candy Man".

Oh, yeah. Yeah. I faintly remember that. I don't remember a lot about it.

I should send you a copy of it.

Do what?

I should send you a copy of it, so you can hear it.

Yeah, I'd like to see that. I'd like to hear it.

And while you were at King, you even recorded one of James Brown's songs. You did a version of "Think".

Yeah, I did a version of "Think" and I wrote a song off of ... I believe it was a James Brown song called "I'll Go Crazy" ... I wrote a song called "I'll Go Crazy" that was a takeoff from one of his songs. And then I wrote a song called "No Rest For The Wicked" that I put on the back of the song called "Somebody Please", which was a takeoff on a James Brown song.

I'm gonna correct you there. I think "No Rest For The Wicked" was the other side of "Get Down With It".

Yeah, "Get Down With It". My first song to make the charts was "Harlem Shuffle". That song made the charts, and the next song was called "Get Down With It", and I introduced that, that and "Going Back To Miami" on The Jackie Gleason Show.

"Get Down With It" is best known as a recording by Bobby Marchan. Is that where you heard it?

Probably so, I don't remember, though. I remember starting, I'm going, "Everybody let your hair down. If you don't feel like letting it down, take it off. Everything's alright." That was the first line in it.

That's it. That's it exactly. So, "Get Down With It" was a hit. "Harlem Shuffle" was a hit that was a cover of Bob & Earl song.

I don't remember who had recorded "Harlem Shuffle", but I heard it and I loved that guitar lick, and then the chord changes, so I recorded it and it made the charts from it.

And there's another white artist did a version of "Harlem Shuffle", a guy by the name of Roy Head. Did you know Roy Head at all?

No, I didn't, but I remember him. What was his big song...?

"Treat Her Right".

Hmm?

"Treat Her Right".

Oh, yeah. "Treat Her Right", Roy Head. Yeah, that was a good record. He got good sales on that.

And he was known for outrageous stage antics, doing splits, and jumps, and flips, and all that sort of thing. By this time, were you starting to develop your stage act, or had you already been doing that for a while?

I've been doing it for a while.

Yeah. Can you tel us a little bit about what you used to do on the live shows in the mid-60's?

Well, I used to do ... We didn't have shows in this part of the country. We're mostly dance bands and what happened was, we were playing a dance, and I did a song [inaudible 00:20:14] called "Shout". And doing that song, I don't know why I did it ... One night I got out on the dance floor, got down on my knees and was doing [inaudible 00:20:24] and going up and down, and everybody quit dancing and stood around and watched. And that was just amazing so I thought I would try more of that, but that was my first take on doing the show instead of just playing for a dance.

Did you take little bits from other shows you saw? I mean, [inaudible 00:20:45] Jackie Wilson used to drop the mic and then catch it with his foot and things like that. Would you see other shows and say, "Oh, I'll borrow that. I'll borrow this from James Brown," or how did it work?

Well, Jackie Wilson, myself, and a few others got that from a guy named Joe Tex. He was the first one to do that. He did a lot of mic tricks, Joe Tex did. And then Jackie Wilson started doing it, but Jackie Wilson had a great voice. I did some gigs with him. I played the Royal Theater in Baltimore, I think, with him and he was a great singer, good showman.

[crosstalk 00:21:28] he was such a good showman, wasn't he ... The women used to go a bit crazy when he would hit the knees?

When they was what?

That the women would go a bit crazy, the stories of them knocking down the dressing room door and all sorts of things.

Yeah. That was the very first day [inaudible 00:21:53] show business, and rock and roll days. I remember I loved Elvis Presley before I ever left home, that's when he was in Sun Records, and before he signed with RCA Victor, and he had a song that was real good that was called "Goodnight of Rocking" and that was sort of a rock and roll song, boogie song. I really liked that. [crosstalk 00:22:26]

Who was your favorite artist when you were coming up?

He had another on Sun Record, called "Baby Let's Play House" that was the first song that really used echo chamber, and that was really good. I liked that.

Do you remember what was kind of the first black records you heard when you were growing up in Thomaston?

Do I remember what?

Some of the first black records you heard when you were growing up in Thomaston?

I still didn't understand what you said, I'm sorry.

I was wondering what were some of the first black music records you heard, blues or rhythm and blues, that you heard when you were very young?

I was trying to think of one. One that I really like was recorded by Little Willie John. You might remember that. I can't remember the name of it right now.

Was it "Fever"?

"Fever", oh, yeah.

[crosstalk 00:23:27]

Also recorded by Peggy Lee. She got a hit on that.

That's it. Now, what happened at Mercury Records? Why weren't some of these records bigger hits? They sound very commercial, or accessible, or something these days.

Well, Mercury Records, there was a guy there who liked me who signed me, and we put out a few records on Mercury, and they promoted them a little, not a lot. And so I got a couple of chart records, but then Mercury was taken over by a company that didn't really like me, so they kind of canned me and put me on a shelf.

You recorded "Going Back To Miami" for Mercury. Was that a hit straight away, or did you make it a hit off the back of your touring?

Well, "Going Back To Miami" I wrote to perform on The Jackie Gleason Show. I wrote it particularly for that. And "Going Back To Miami" was what you call an "air hit" back then. Sometimes a song would be played a lot on radio but it didn't sell much, and "Going Back To Miami" was a big radio hit, but it didn't sell many records.

Were you living in Miami, or did you have any association with Miami when you wrote that?

Yeah, I was living in Miami when I wrote that. It's basically about going on the road and then you get to go back home, going back to Miami, going back to my girl. 'Cause my wife lived in Miami while I was traveling and I'd go back home and we lived there together.

You also recorded for Chess Records shortly after that. Tell me about the Chess Records experience.

Well, Chess Records, I did one album with. We recorded that at Rick Hall Studios in Muscle Shoals, Alabama, and they put that out and I got some good airplay and good sales on a cover I did called "Get Ready". I forgot who recorded that originally.

It was Four Tops' song, I think.

It might have been. I got some good airplay and good sales off of that. There's a guy with Mercury Records named Morris Diamond and he really liked me when I signed with them, but then they sold the company, I think, to Philips Records and they didn't do that kind of music so they never released nothing else on me.

You recorded a song at Chess called "Some-a Your Sweet Love". Do you remember that one?

Oh, yeah. I remember writing that song.

You sound very much like Bobby "Blue" Bland on that recording. Was that deliberate? Was he an influence for you?

Was what deliberate?

The Bobby "Blue" Bland sound that you had on that recording.

Well, I recorded [inaudible 00:26:51] the horn parts and everything, and I just liked that song. I wrote it the way I wanted it to go, and I enjoyed doing it.

Did you ever see Bobby "Blue" Bland play in those days?

My favorite singer at that time, blues singer, was Bobby "Blue Boy" Bland with the Joe Scott Orchestra. Boy, Bobby Bland had an incredible voice. I mean, just an incredible voice, awesome. Bobby Bland might have been, to me, the best blues singer ever. I remember he had a big song that I loved called "Two Steps from the Blues". Boy, his voice on that song was just unbelievable.

That "Some-a Your Sweet Love" sounds a lot like his "Turn On Your Love Light".

Yeah, it was sort of like "Turn On Your Love Light". I think that was Bobby Bland, wasn't it?

It was, yes.

Yeah. He was a great singer, Bobby "Blue Boy" Bland, but to me he sounded best and his great song was "Two Steps from the Blues". What a song, and the horns on that song was just absolutely awesome. They were awesome. They had the horn introduction to that song of his was fantastic.

You've always loved the sound with the big horns and you've made it a part of your sound, haven't you?

Well, I'd seen, when I was young in Thomaston, a move called "The Glenn Miller Orchestra" and that was my first introduction to hearing horns. I'd always been listening to country music. And his horn sounded so good, Glenn Miller. Remember he had a big song called "In The Mood", "String of Pearls", and that's when I tried to add horns to my band, and try to figure out, then, how to use them actually. So that-

[crosstalk 00:29:10] The James Brown Famous Flames stage show was also an influence?

Well, James Brown and The Flames ... James was a prizefighter when he was young. Small guy, but he was a prizefighter, and he actually got in a fight with a guy on the street and killed him. And he was in prison for life. And Syd Nathan heard his song, just him and The Flames and a piano, called "Please, Please, Please", and Syd Nathan's comment was, "When you hear a guy say one word through a whole song that many times, 'please, please', and he gets a hit on it, he's got to be incredible." So, that's when he bought James Brown and out him on King Records. James Brown in prison was called "The Music Box", 'cause he would always dance and sing.

The other person in the 60's who had bigger hair than James Brown was yourself. Did you always have that outrageous hairstyle?

Did I always have what?

An outrageous hairstyle, the big pompadour.

Oh, James Brown had a black pompadour. His hair was black, he had a pompadour. I loved the way it looked, so my hair was brunette and I went and had it bleached and bleached 'till it turned white, and I did a pompadour of my own with that, and that was sort of the white version of James Brown's pompadour 'cause at that time James Brown was sort of my idol and I really liked him. I liked his clothes. He had great clothes. I remember he had so many clothes, one of his things he would do, he took a tractor-trailer truck around with his wardrobe in it, and he would charge a dollar for people to go in and go through the truck, look at his wardrobe. So, he loved clothes, and I got into clothes because of that and my first clothes that I designed was very similar to his. And he was my idol so I did a lot of things that he did.

Did you have to carry a beautician on tour with you to do your hair every night?

When I got known for my hair, I had to carry a beautician with me 24 hours a day, seven days a week on the road. I paid him a straight salary, and he would get up in the morning and I wouldn't go to the restroom or nothing 'till he did my hair, because I got known for the hair and so I had it done whenever I went anywhere.

How long would it take to do the hair in the morning?

It would take probably half an hour to 45 minutes, maybe an hour.

And the capes and the jumpsuits, did you design them yourself? Who made them?

I designed all my capes I wore. Actually there was this ... I wore suits with a cape, and Elvis Presley come to see me. He liked the show and so he started wearing a suit like that, with a cape. It was a short, formal cape. And I knew I couldn't look like that so I went and started wearing jumpsuits, and designed a jumpsuit, and then he started wearing those. But it's quite a compliment because he was one of my idols, and he actually started opening his show with the song "C.C Rider", as sort of a gesture towards me. I really appreciated that.

You were working out of Vegas at one time, weren't you?

Huh?

During what years were you working out of Las Vegas?

I'm sorry, I couldn't understand that.

Sorry, you lived in Las Vegas for a number of years. Did you not?

Oh, yes I did, 'cause you can work there instead of one-nighters. I remember one time I did 269 one-nighters with no days off, and traveling two to four hundred miles a day between cities, and it's just totally exhausting. And you can go to Las Vegas and stay there for 28 days, four weeks, and that was like a vacation, man. And it got to where I could do that in Miami 'cause it was a tourist city, so then I would spend about four to six months a year, either in Las Vegas or in Miami. It was the only place I had to sort of live in a home, you know?

Yep. I like the moment in the film, The Blues Brothers, where they mention you and your band. You've seen that, I take it?

Yeah, well, I got a call from Dan Aykroyd at my home down here, and he said they were in the studio doing an album and they did some of my songs. And John Belushi and Dan Aykroyd had come to see me in Toronto, Canada, in a place called the El Mocambo. And leaving there, they said, "You know, we wanted to do R&B music and they said white guys couldn't do that, but we just saw one that did so let's do an R&B album." And so they did their first album and they would call me at home and say, "Listen, on this song, why did you do this?" Or, "Why did you do that?" And we would talk and they later dedicated that song to me, on the record. They actually said the dedication on the record itself.

And on their first live album, I was in the audience to see them. I went down front and they saw me, and they pulled me up on the stage, and they said, "You know, our mission is music and he is the music." Well I was sort of embarrassed, I didn't know what to say so I just hollered, "The Blues Brothers!" So if you listen to their live album, there's a voice going off [inaudible 00:35:42] called, "The Blues Brothers!" That was me. They put that in there.

Wow, that's an amazing story. It's surprising they didn't have you in the film itself.

It what?

It's surprising you weren't asked to be in the film itself.

Yeah. I know they have a scene where they was talking to Steve Lawrence, I believe, and they was talking about uniforms and they said, "We want a suit with stars on it," 'cause I had a suit then I wore with stars on it. And they put a line in the movie where he says, "Who do you think you are? Wayne Cochran?" They put that line in there just for me and I enjoyed hearing that. That was a thrill.

Yeah, that is an honor. One of the most important films of the last hundred years.

It was what?

It was one of the best-selling films of the last hundred years.

Oh, yeah?

Oh, yeah, Blue's Brothers. Everyone in the world's seen it and everyone's heard that line.

I enjoyed that movie quite a bit.

Do you ever sing your secular music anymore?

Sing what?

Do you ever sing your old songs anymore?

Well, no, 'cause I pastor a church now. I have for about 35 years. I do some spiritual music every now and then. Not a lot, 'cause I have six singers and I have a six-piece band, and they do all the praise and worship and I just do the preaching ad the teaching. So I don't really sing a lot anymore. I know this past Sunday, there was a woman who passed away, and her favorite song that I did was a song called "Holy Spirit" and I sung that this past Sunday. First time I sing in a pretty good while. So I sing every now and then, not often.

If you were to receive an invitation, do you think you would do a one-off comeback show of your C.C Riders material?

Well, the thing was, if I was to do that, I'd have to have a band that I'd have to rehearse with, and do the arrangements so it would sound like it did then, you know?

Yeah. It's just, there is a concert that happens in New Orleans every two years called the Ponderosa Stomp. Have you ever heard of that?

No.

So, what they do is, they get people on the show who haven't played for, in a lot of cases, decades, and people from all over the world, like myself, come there who are enthusiasts of soul, and rhythm and blues, and rockabilly, and you see these artists. So, for instance, [crosstalk 00:39:02] is on the show this year, and Roy Head is on the show. Fats Domino has been there, and all those sort of guys. I know they would be very interested in having you on one time.

Well, but you see, in order for me to do that, I'd have to have a band that I can rehearse with and arrange the songs so that the band would know how to play behind me what I wanted to hear. So it would take some time for rehearsal for that.

I was asking whether there's anything else you wanted to talk about from your history that we haven't gone over.

Well, I don't know. I had an interesting career. I enjoyed every minute of it and I just thank God for all the people out there that enjoyed our show, and attended. We have great attendance wherever we went. We'd have waiting lines. And I just really appreciate that and I thank God that I was able to do that, and because of that, quite a few people still remember me. That's always nice to be remembered.

Do you ever miss the touring, the big gigs, going on stage in front of thousands of people?

Oh, yeah. That was my joy. I enjoyed performing, and choreographing, and arranging, and we had a pretty good live show. In fact, I've had Playboy Magazine did an edition in December, I believe it was in '73. And they covered the past 10 years of music that made music history, and they talked about all the artists and everything, and the whole article ended with that there was a 6'1 blonde bombshell, and if he ever comes to your town, you oughta go see him. You'll get a complete religious experience because he is, without a doubt, the greatest performer in this century, and because Ozone can't be captured on plastic, he'll forever do roadshows. So if he comes to your town, go see him. That was how the article ended. I really appreciated that. Yeah, I just couldn't believe that. "Entertainer of the century", wow.

We're rolling.

Okay.

Do you want to introduce yourself?

Hi, I'm William Bell.

(Laughts) what do you do Willie?

Well, I'm a Stax recording artist, of course, and been doing it a long time, many years.

You weren't always a solo artist though, were you?

No, I started out with a group called the Del Rios, and we sang around Memphis, and at some of the local clubs and stuff. Then, of course, found our way to Stax Records.

What's some of the stuff you did with the Del Rios?

We had one song that we recorded for Stax called 'There's the Love' listen, and the B side was 'Just Across the Street' listen. Then we did the backup voices behind Carla Thomas' 'Gee Whiz' listen.

The Del Rios didn't really have big hits as a group, but were you big locally? Did you draw crowd when you played around?

Yeah, we were known throughout, say the tri state area, Memphis, Tennessee, Arkansas, Mississippi. We played all the college places, and we played both The Flamingo Room here in Memphis, and over in Arkansas at the Plantation Inn. Which was depicted in the movie the Blues Brothers, where they had that chicken wire and all that stuff. We played the Plantation Inn a couple of years over there, yeah.

Both white colleges and black colleges?

Over at the Plantation it was more, back during that time, unfortunately it was all white. Over here at the Flamingo it was predominately black, but we did have some whites coming in and out. Elvis use to come in every now and then.

You would become known, and have become known as a great ballad singer, like you even said yourself last night.

Right, well I do everything live, but I guess most of my hits have been in the ballad arena.

That's actually quite unusual, isn't it? When you're comparing it to say, Eddie Floyd. I know Ace and Eddie both had ballad numbers, but probably their biggest hits were things like 'Knock on Wood', and the faster stuff.

Right, right.

Respect, and what have you.

Right, it was just that, I guess, for my background, ballads were like my forte, more or less. Most of my hit songs on Stax were a ballad, but I had some up tempo things that were pretty good too.

Do you remember what your first solo record was?

'You Don't Miss Your Water Until Your Well Runs Dry' listen, yeah.

Tell us about that song.

That was the first one.

Who wrote it?

I did. Yes, I've written most of my hits, and some things for other people at Stax, including Albert King, of course. 'Born Under a Bad Sign' listen, and the Nightingales, Otis, I wrote for a lot of people.

Can you remember the moment when you wrote You Don't Miss Your Water?

1961.

Do you remember what you were doing at the time that you wrote it?

Oh yeah, I was in New York City, traveling during the summer with a band called the Phineas Newborn Orchestra, and I wrote the song while I was there.

Was it based on any particular experience?

Well yeah, just missing home. We had been on the road for like three months almost, and that was what it was about.

It's a very country tuned song, I think you'd agree.

Thank you. It's a combination of, I guess, the music that I was exposed to, which was country, and blues, and gospel.

What was the first ... Well, how successful was 'You Don't Miss Your Water'?

Very successful. It was the first major hit by a male artist on Stax, yeah.

That got how high up on the charts.

I think it was, I'm not exactly sure how high it went on the national charts, but it was a number one R&B record. I don't know how, but we got into maybe top 50's of the charts.

What do you think is the favorite tune that you've written? Your favorite tune that you've penned?

My favorite tune, I would have to say a combination of 'Everyday Will Be Like a Holiday' listen, and 'I Forgot to Be Your Lover' listen, one of those two. I like 'You Don't Miss Your Water', because that's my very first song. But, my favorite, as far as creatively, I like 'I Forgot to Be Your Lover' and stuff, yeah.

I yelled that for 'Everyday Will Be Like a Holiday', and you gave me a look like you were going to do it.

Yeah, well, the time was cutting short.

Can you give us just a little bit of the verse.

Oh no, I didn't get much sleep last night, and you're the second person who have asked me to sing to you.

That song, or?

Yeah.

Are you serious?

I know, yeah. But, singers are notorious for, their voices don't wake up until nighttime.

That song starts with sleigh bells.

Yeah. Actually, that was Al Jackson's idea to put that in there. Kind of like a the near grabber or something, the attention getter. Because, actually it was not written to be a Christmas standard song. They've made it a Christmas standard now, but it was just another ballad tune, but Al had the idea of the holiday theme of putting sleigh bells in it, so that kind of put it into the Christmas mode.

You also wrote some, or sang some others, Share What You Got Keep What you Need.

Oh yeah, those were ... That actually was written by me and David Porter, I think. I think David was the one writing on it, or maybe Homer Banks. It's been a long time, but we wrote, David and I wrote a couple things together, along with a couple things with Homer Banks.

Yeah, and you also sang a duet or two in your time.

Oh yeah, the most prominent one, I did some things with Mavis, but the better known one would be 'Private Number' listen with Judy Clay. Yes, so I've done a lot of duets. Duets with Carla. We did a full album back in those days of duets, called 'Boy Meets Girl'.

Tell me just in brief, what was it like being around this place, Stax Records.

It was like going to University it was like, but fun. There was a lot of camaraderie, and creative energies flowing between writers, and artists, and musicians. It was a lot of fun, it was fun time.

Cool, and what did you do after the Stax thing ended? Talk about what you did after that.

After Stax I moved to Atlanta and started a label with my manager called Peachtree Records, and we had a quite a few acts, Johnny Jones, James Fountain, Mitty Collier, quite a few acts on those Peachtree tours that we signed up. I was writing and producing for a while on that. Then I went to drama school for a while, and for a couple years with the academy theater there in Atlanta, and then in New York I studied for a while. Then went to Mercury Records, and of course, started recording again with the first single turned into a multimillion seller, Tryin' To Love Two.

What part of your story, or the Stax story, do they most often get wrong, or did they just?

Do they get wrong? Well, I don't know. That's a hard one, I don't know.

Are there any things that ever stick in your craw when you hear them and you just, like they've become accepted history, but you know that's not the story, or?

Yeah, sometimes they get the birthdate wrong, or they get things like that wrong. That's throughout the years, a lot of stuff has been turned backward, turned around, but I can't think of one thing. It's just not anything monumental, but it's just one or two things, yep.

How do you feel when you get up in front of an audience of younger people than yourself in the moment?

Really, I'm more comfortable on stage than I am off. I'm just a people lover, and I love people, I love performing, and I guess if it came to a time when I was dreading getting up there, I'd retire. But, so far I'm still enjoying what I do.

Do you think it's interesting that this music still holds so much interesting, even with people from other generations?

It still amazes me to have been a part of creating music that has withstood the test of time. You think almost 50 years this music endured. As a matter of fact, next year Stax celebrates its 50th anniversary, which is unbelievable. But, it is amazing that as kids and everything we created something that has lasted this long, and is still viable music.

I don't remember how I first got Rosco's number, but I remember how nervous I was calling that first time. Rosco was the living link between my two loves, rhythm and blues and ska. To me, it was like speaking to a Mozart, Louis Armstrong, or Django Reinhardt.

Rosco and I became phone pals. About every two weeks, in the dead of night (morning in New York), I'd ring, and we'd talk for an hour or so about everything: music, women, news of the day.

He invariably had a new song he was working on—Rosco always thought another hit like in his Chess/Sun/Vee-Jay days was just around the corner—and every time I called, I got a live performance. He would put the receiver on the little electric piano by his bed and play something in that familiar proto-ska lope, then ask what I thought, often launching into another song before I could answer. At my request, he would reprise "No More Doggin'", "Cheese & Crackers", or "Just A Little Bit". I still have to pinch myself.

My first trip to the USA was really just to meet Rosco in person. He lived in Queens in a tower block called "Sydney", part of a development where each building was named after an Australian city—there was a "Brisbane", an "Adelaide", a "Melbourne", and even a flagpole with the Australian flag flying proudly next to the Stars and Stripes.

The Rosco stories are many, but a few highlights include: going with him to see if he'd hit his numbers; watching him grab his monthly royalty cheque for "Just A Little Bit" (kept him from poverty); driving over the Brooklyn Bridge in his A-Team-style van while he sang country music; sitting with him in a studio high up in a Manhattan office while he was interviewed with deep reverence on a reggae show; and recording a one-hour mini-concert in his apartment.

Rosco passed less than a year after these photos were taken. I have the unfortunate honour of probably being the last person to speak to him in this realm. The night before he died, I was encouraging him to do a gig he'd been offered in Memphis. When he was found, his packed bags were by the front door, ready to do that off-beat blues shuffle one more time.

Jerry McCain's house (Gadsden Alabama) was easy enough to spot — a giant embedded harmonica and gold "Home of the Blues" lettering on the outside front gave it away.

Jerry stood out as well.

When Jim Dandy and I rolled up, he was on his front lawn, dressed in black military fatigues and a black do-rag. Disregard the photo — he was in a foul mood, trying/failing to dig a termite trench around his house with a new tool.

He eventually gave up, threw the "Muthafuckin' piece of shit!" across the lawn and ushered us inside…

Highlights of Jerry's front room:

1. Memorabilia covering all four walls AND THE CEILING 2. The "Harmonica Graveyard" where he hung dead harps from rusty chains 3. A coffee table (wait).

I asked Jerry about his INSANE Excello punk-blues records.

"Made them right here in this room. I sent them some demo tapes and they put 'em out! You ever hear 'Next Door Neighbour'? My brother Walter didn't have a drum, so he's hitting that same coffee table there with a rolled-up magazine."

"Did you know I was an FBI bounty hunter? They said I was too small, but you don't need to be when you have this"… (pulls a Glock pistol, dancing the red dot up on the ceiling).

He then took us on a firearms tour of his house — more guns than rooms. My favourites were the toilet shotgun and the ankle revolver.

We were then treated to an impromptu blues harmonica performance: "any more than that and you gotta pay".

Before we left, while Jim Dandy spoke with Jerry, his very proper white girlfriend bade me into the kitchen to tell me a "big secret" — Jerry was going to be inducted into the Alabama Blues Hall of Fame. "Don't tell him."

On the road just out of Alabama, my phone rang. It was Jerry, seething:

"Hey man! I saw what you was doing. With my lady in the kitchen. I don't know what you're up to but I DON'T LIKE IT."

He let me know never to show my ass in Gadsden, or I'd have a red dot on me.

Some days later (at his lady's insistence, probably), he called to apologise about the misunderstanding.

Jerry "Boogie" McCain was inducted into the Alabama Blues Hall of Fame on 14 September 2014.

As we headed to Nathaniel Mayer's house in Mike Hurtt's Buick, I recalled his Ponderosa Stomp gig two years previous.

The Stomp was running super-late as usual, but at 2:30 AM, there was still a big crowd of die-hards in the cellar room at the Rock'n'Bowl waiting to see the Motortown garage-soul legend strut his stuff. Despite the hour, "Nate Dog" was: (a) wearing sunglasses; and (b) full of energy. I danced drunkenly in front of the stage, carrying the pimp cane I'd bought from Rudy Ray Moore (who was dutifully selling Dolemite merch off a card table at the back of the room).

It was dusk when we pulled up to see Nathaniel Mayer, Fortune Records demi-god, waiting dressed in his Sunday best: a terry-towelling robe and slippers. We never made it past his front porch — he ushered us to some metal chairs around a metal table.

As the last of the sunset extinguished, it became pitch black — no streetlights or house lights, and the cause was obvious. On the other side of the road, a few doors down, a transformer high on a pole was throwing bright white and blue sparks like fireworks against the backdrop of the Detroit night sky.

Nathaniel emerged from the interior darkness with beer in glass jelly jars. In the dimness only his grey crewcut shone silver in the moonlight. He placed the containers in front of Mike, Jim Dandy, and me.

He sat down, raised his glass, looked Mike dead in the eye. In his signature rasp, "You're a fuck up!" Slowly turning right to Jim Dandy, with a serious look… "you're fuck up".

My turn… Nathaniel, close-up, voice like sandpaper, "You are a fuck up!"

"I'm a fuck up!… We're all fuck ups!… (raised his glass high)… TO FUCK UPS!!!"

We departed an hour or so later.

The last time I saw Nathaniel Mayer was through the back window of that Buick.

He was standing in the road in his robe and slippers, holding his glass up in the gloom, "SEE YOU LATER FUCK-UPS!"

Note: Michael Hurtt, who features in this story, has since co-written the essential tome "Mind Over Matter — The Myths and Mysteries of Fortune Records", in which Nathaniel features prominently. Check it.

A few moments in my life have felt beyond mere happenstance and more scripted, Truman Show-esque.

The Jerry McCain visit was like that, some Ken Boothe moments… and when I met Willie Mitchell.

Even if you don't know his name, you have enjoyed Willie's legacy.

Starting out as a trumpeter in the 1950s, Willie became the owner and musical director at Hi Records — best known for Al Green's hits but also funky southern soul by Syl Johnson, O.V. Wright and others.

The "Hi Sound" was born at Royal Studio, down the road from Stax.

Whenever in Memphis, I'd stop by "1320 Willie Mitchell Boulevard". The lights were always off, no activity. I began to wonder if it was out of operation.

This time (a gloomy Sunday) was different… a large tour bus was in the car park.

As I approached, the front door swung open. A young man (Willie's son, "Boo"?) said, "Come in. We've been waiting on you".

Without asking my name, he led me down a wood-panelled hallway and into the main studio of Royal Recorders… seemingly untouched since the halcyon days.

"This is it. Take some pictures. Take as long as you like".

I stood in the isolation booth where Ann Peebles implored "I Can't Stand the Rain". I sat at the keyboard where Charles Hodges drove his brothers and drummer Howard Grimes to create the "Hi Sound".

I wandered back down the hallway, where Boo bade me into an office… decor vintage 1970s.

Behind the desk, in a high-backed leather chair, Willie Mitchell sat with a broad smile.

In front, two seats, one empty, the other occupied by ELVIS COSTELLO.

"Sit down son" says Willie. "Hello mate" says Elvis C.

For the next half an hour, Elvis, Willie and I sat just shooting the shit.

From his publicity pics, I'd assumed Willie was a super-serious, austere man. The opposite was true — feet up on the desk, laughing constantly, dry wit.

I remember Elvis's eyes rolling as his phone rang. His wife (Diana Krall) was calling from a Fiji holiday with a complaint.

I left in a daze… Lynchian surrealness — dark clouds, 1970s interior, inexplicable familiarity, no one except Boo, his legendary dad, Elvis Costello, me.

Robert Ward resided with his wife, Roberta, in a portable home on a dirt road cut deep into the dark pine forest near Dry Branch — a tiny hamlet in nowhere, Georgia.

I'd admired Robert Ward ever since I heard the Falcons' "I Found A Love." The song is rightly revered as arguably the first soul record and for unleashing Wilson Pickett into the world.

To me, though, the most singular element of that 45 is the tremolo-drenched call-and-response guitar of Robert Jeryl Ward…

…I had arranged the meeting by phone with his wife weeks earlier.

I expected Dr Johnny and me would just drop in, chat with Robert, take a photo, and hit the road again.

We entered to the clatter of pots on the stove, children yelling, men talking in the living room.

Roberta had invited the Ward family from all over to honour our visit.

Robert's son, in army uniform, turned up soon after, apologising for his lateness.

"They came all the way from Australia to meet grandad," she told the kids, who, as three generations of Ward women prepared supper, led us out back to walk the abandoned railway.

I did not "interview" Robert Ward per se — he'd suffered a stroke a few years previous and spoke only in strangled grunts that Roberta interpreted for me.

Tragically, the right arm that once drove the soupy twang through the Magnatone amp when he led The Ohio Untouchables now hung semi-limp by his side.

He weakly strummed his guitar as Roberta told us he was making progress and hoped to perform again soon.

But it was in no way a melancholic occasion. As the Ward ladies served up collard greens, black-eyed peas and meats, Mr Ward beamed — overjoyed at having family and foreign visitors gathered for Sunday dinner.

I remain hypnotised by Robert Ward's guitar tone.

I even bought an original Ohio Untouchables session tape on eBay just to hear the outtakes.

Any guitarist I meet, I'll eventually ask if they've heard "I'm Tired," "Love Is Amazing", or "Hot Stuff."

In L.A. last week, I met 78 y.o. Bobby Warren backstage after he played the best blues I've heard in ages.

"Robert Ward?! Yeah I know him. He was my teacher! Shit, he was my hero!"

It was the morning of my first day ever in Jamaica.

I'd been to the Bob Marley Museum, run into Ziggy Marley and, more interestingly, met diminutive guitarist Eric Frater, who'd played behind Jackie Mittoo and others as part of The Sound Dimension.

Next stop was Trench Town, the (occasionally) no-go zone of downtown Kingston.

Locals peered suspiciously from doorways, as a tall, skinny kid, minidisc recorder in hand, strolled blithely through one of the most lawless parts of the world on the way to the legendary Randy's Records in North Parade.

Carl at Randy's was just as bemused as I stepped to the counter and told him I was looking for old musicians to interview.

Carl: "Like who?"

Me: "Um, Delroy Wilson?"

Carl: "No mon, im DEAD"

Such an idiot.

Alright, I thought, which artist goes back furthest?

Me: "How about Theo Beckford?"

Carl: "T. Beckford? Yes mon, I'll call 'im"

Unlike most genres (e.g. soul, rock'n'roll), where there is debate as to the first song in that style, it is almost unanimous that the year zero of reggae is a song called "Easy Snappin'" by pianist Theo Beckford.

On that song, Mr Beckford exaggerates Rosco Gordon's off-beat lope just enough to create a whole different animal — proto-Ska.

Mr Beckford looked every bit of his 65 years as he eased up to the piano in the back room (the former studio of Vincent "Randy" Chin).

As I sat at the bench with him, "Snappin'" talked about the early days of blues dances, sound systems, Prince Buster and Coxsone Dodd, interspersed with snatches of his old songs played valiantly on the beaten-up keyboard, "Sorry mon, this piano is bad", he apologised.

After getting him to do a radio show ID, I slipped Mr Beckford some money and headed back to my hotel, amazed to have met the man whose music is the missing link of rhythm and blues to reggae…

Not long back from my Jamaican trip, I heard that Mr Beckford had been killed — "chopped in the back of the head", said The Jamaica Gleaner.

"What kind of society is this where a 65-year-old man can be so brutally murdered… someone who has contributed to the development of his country", decried his son.